Questions about 20.4 Fortification and Combat

[DarkHorse2]

I have some general questions about the section "20.4 Fortification and Combat" from War in the East 2 EBOOK.pdf.

In the following screen-shot from the manual, there is a rectangle around "ENGINEER : 50",

WiTE2_FortificationAndCombat_Manual.JPG (75.83 KiB) Viewed 743 times

what does the "50" represent?

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In section "20.4.3. Fort Level Reduction in Combat", it makes several references to "heavy artillery". such as:

Artillery (especially Heavy Artillery) can also cause small
fort reductions during combat.
In summary, the impact on fortifications of combat is:
§§ From artillery fire during fire combat, with heavy
artillery weapons causing the greatest reduction. These
reductions are generally small fractional reductions.

What specifically qualifies as "heavy" artillery?

[Jango32]

Heavy artillery refers to equipment keyed as heavy artillery in-game, pretty sure.

The engineer symbol is explained at 20.3.3. in the manual as well as 20.4.3.

[Lurberri]

There are in the game (in Support units) artillery of type "Heavy Artillery" and "Super-Heavy Artillery". Together with the engineers (pioneers) it's usually quite useful in the assaults on fortifications.

[DarkHorse2]

I appreciate your answers.

WiTE2 is fairly liberal with what it describes as "Heavy" Artillery, especially in unit names.

However, in the game editor, you can specify a "Heavy Artillery (32)" or "Super-Heavy Artillery(86)" type for Ground Elements.

Yeah, it must be using this...

[Lurberri]

However, in the game editor, you can specify a "Heavy Artillery (32)" or "Super-Heavy Artillery(86)" type for Ground Elements.

Yeah, it must be using this...

Yes

[loki100]

There are in the game (in Support units) artillery of type "Heavy Artillery" and "Super-Heavy Artillery". Together with the engineers (pioneers) it's usually quite useful in the assaults on fortifications.

be a bit cautious at assuming this is a 1-1 relationship. Some heavy gun SUs can take on lighter guns as replacements so may not just contain the relevant types.

You can find which types of guns count as heavy etc in the equipment tab as:

[Stamb]

it would be very useful if game would indicate that some SU is not using armament from its TOE but some other as a replacements

right now you have to manually check each SU before attaching

[DarkHorse2]

You are exactly correct.

I am considering how that would be achieved.

Artillery units named "Heavy" often times do not actually contain "Heavy" or "Super-Heavy" Artillery.

I am wondering if maybe an '*' suffix could be added to their unit names - or - some other way to denote them and make them easier to identify when selecting SUs?

The following is just one example. None of these so-called "Heavy" Artillery are considered "Heavy" for fort-busting purposes. (fyi - the unit names most likely came from historical references; however, that does not align with the fort-busting game mechanics. )

WiET2_HvyArty.JPG (366.63 KiB) Viewed 618 times

Y

[Jango32]

Adding a suffix doesn't work long term because of lighter guns apparently filling up heavy artillery SUs as replacements if heavy artillery is not available.

[DarkHorse2]

hmmm.... that is unfortunate. Does WiTE2 actually allow a substitution of TOE elements of different sub-types?

As I was thinking of something like this:

Note - I was also working on modding the SU names to clearly denote when they are motorized as well.

WiET2_SU_Mod.JPG (414.19 KiB) Viewed 603 times

Naming convention was adopted from:

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/history- ... le-694186/

and

https://usacac.army.mil/sites/default/f ... 44GLAA.pdf

However, I am not entirely sure I like it and may change to placing (mot),(tmot), etc.. at the end, as used here:

http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/barbar ... arbarossa/

FYI -
(besp) - horse drawn
(mot) - motorized
(tmot) - partly motorized, semi-motorized (i.e. bicycle troops)
(motZ) - tractor drawn, tracked, tracked gun carriages (i.e. JadgPz 1)
(bo) - static

[loki100]

the problem is that if substitution is set too tightly you get the other problem that stuff is sat in the pools while SUs are stuck under-strength.

realistically, this is a huge red herring - by the time this sort of substitution is really in effect the axis player is very unlikely to be doing these sort of set-piece assaults, your artillery losses only really start to increase as you start regularly losing defensive battles badly

[DarkHorse2]

Just to be clear, you are telling me that later in the game, the AI may swap out Heavy Artillery and Super-Heavy Artillery for just plain Artillery elements?

If that is the case, that is not the impression the manual is giving me.

21.2.7. GRoUND ELEMENt UPGRADE/
DoWNGRADE AND SWAP
...
In the swap sub-segment, the computer may change
out existing ground elements with ground elements of
the same type, but not necessarily along the upgrade/
downgrade path, though priority will be given to newer
equipment. For example, a Panzer IVg is a medium tank
ground element, which upgrades to the Panzer IVh and
downgrades to the Panzer IVf2. In the swap sub-segment,
however, Panzer IVg ground elements may be changed
out to another medium tank, such as a Panzer IIIj L/60,
depending on the availability of medium tank equipment
in the production pool.

Following this same logic, it would appear to me that Heavy Artillery would only be swapped out for other Heavy Artillery, etc...

[loki100]

No. I'm saying that some swaps are less restrictive than others, so I doubt that SH Artillery goes to anything but that but I've seen non-heavy elements in German 'heavy' SUs. I suggest a poke around in the editor as that sets out the upgrade/swap paths set for a given element

I also, as above, think this is a red herring. By the time this swap routine kicks in the interaction of SU assignment and the importance of taking out fortifications for the axis player is going to be near zero

[DarkHorse2]

Now I am wondering if the allowed substitution set (for a given element type) is simply defined in the game data itself?

WiTE2_HvyArty_Substitutions.JPG (121.15 KiB) Viewed 503 times

WiTE2_SuperHvyArty_Substitutions.JPG (35.13 KiB) Viewed 503 times

[DarkHorse2]

Here is the substitution set for Medium Tank, which seems to allow substitutions outside of its pre-defined set of "Medium Tank" types.

WiTE2_MediumTank_Substitutions.JPG (136.82 KiB) Viewed 499 times

[loki100]

Here is the substitution set for Medium Tank, which seems to allow substitutions outside of its pre-defined set of "Medium Tank" types.

...

yes, at extremes I've seen German heavy tank battalions in WiTW default to using Stugs. AFAIK the less close the match the less likely it will be picked up but the underlying goal is to use feasible elements rather than have a unit empty because its desired choice is not available.

In WiTE1 pre about the .06 patches the upgrade/swap paths were very tightly defined and that caused all sorts of problems in the late game with potential elements in the pools while the active units were run down