route and retreat - same losses, why?

[Stamb]

am i wrong to expect routed units to lose more than the one that retreated?

route vs reatreat - similar losses.png (627.98 KiB) Viewed 597 times

[AlbertN]

I agree rout should mean more losses.

But right now if that is applied I fear the nimble and cheap Soviet may have an ulterior edge as in 41 and early 42 they rout Germans out of sneaking around them smoothly.

Edit. Just noticed the rout is from a lvl3 fort. Lvl3 forts reduce casualties drastically. So here in this specific case it is normal that the rout was that way. I assume it us a case cav embracing too and ideally Germans are able to e exfiltrate.

[tyronec]

The principle is that sometimes routs can be caused by the vagaries of the IGOUGO system and so that is the reason why they can be treated in much the same way as retreats.
Rather than surrounding a unit and routing it out it can be more damaging to force it to retreat through a line of ZOCs.

[Stamb]

I agree rout should mean more losses.

But right now if that is applied I fear the nimble and cheap Soviet may have an ulterior edge as in 41 and early 42 they rout Germans out of sneaking around them smoothly.

Edit. Just noticed the rout is from a lvl3 fort. Lvl3 forts reduce casualties drastically. So here in this specific case it is normal that the rout was that way. I assume it us a case cav embracing too and ideally Germans are able to e exfiltrate.

Looks like lvl 3 fort is not a factor

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[loki100]

In the main I'd say that unit experience is playing a role here. As Tyrone says a rout due in-turn isolation is seen as an extreme form of retreat but that the unit is still moving back within a constricted corridor. So a rout done this way to a low/medium exp formation can be deadly, one done to a unit that is probably around 75 less so - it is seen as having the tactical leadership and training to deal with the situation.

Wider point. Chucking out isolated instances doesn't help. Any one battle in WiTE2 draws on so many leader rolls and interactions between elements that done once it tells us nothing.

if you really want to test this, then what is needed is two instances, preferably roughly comparable. Run each 10 times (that is enough to smooth out the more extreme variances) and then compare. This is basic stuff when trying to compare off non-experimental situations (and there are too many variables at play to simply assert the only variance is retreat/rout)

[Stamb]

i am not testing it, this is pvp game

but looks like exp or morale, or both plays a role here
as Axis allies in some cases might lose almost all of their TOE in a route

also i am not sure about ZOC, that tyronec mentioned
in both examples with a routes units were not blocked by enemy units
they were isolated due to a fact that i won battles against units that were protecting their flanks
it means that during a route routed division had to go via this hexes which is under my control and also leave ZOC from a units that attacked it?

[loki100]

no, the game system assumes that the unit is simply retreating under greater pressure. As Tyrone says the surround is purely an artefact of the IGOUGO design. The competence of the unit has a huge bearing on how well it copes. You are right, if that was a Rumanian formation, or even a Soviet one in late 1943, the rout escalates. its not, its the German army still at its operational and tactical peak - though soon to start its steady decline. You can see how the cut off retreat/rout routine can be used vs lower experience formations in my old AAR vs SpeedySteve.

chucking up random examples doesn't give us an evidence base that this is anything other than WAD.

[DarkHorse2]

I have read the assertions that route vs retreat is heavily influenced by unit Morale / Experience / (TOE% ?).

Sounds reasonable.

But then I was reviewing an AAR (perhaps by Stamb?) where he was heavily punishing a German adversary and inflicting numerous routes again German Panzer/Mot Infantry units in 1941, well in advance of the winter months.

It wasn't clear if this was done via forcing a retreat with no available retreat path - or - just straight up attacking.

I really hope it was the former and there is not something wacky going on with how route outcomes are determined.

[Stamb]

in my AAR there was not a single German unit that routed from an attack without isolation
i think it is even impossible to achieve such route vs human player in `41 (maybe in a winter only? currently at the end of first, and the worst, month for an Axis and there was no route)

[DarkHorse2]

Well, that is reassuring...