[Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

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Thineboot
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[Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Thineboot »

Fresh game: [1.0.4.1]

Various people have reported problems and frustration with exploration ships, especially when it comes to asteroids. There were a few improvements.

However, especially early slow explorers are following strange algorithms when it comes to survey.

As you can see, this particular was sent to survey a gas giant (1) manually. And when this task was finished, I've started at the very next asteroid (2) until it reached (5). At this point I thought give Fully Automate a chance, surveying three asteroid rings at the same time, that's too much. So instead following the human way and proceeding eastward (Auto 7), it choose to cross over the already surveyed asteroids (2-5) toward (Auto 6). Well, (Auto 6) is closer to (5) than (Auto 7), so it made sense. Now you'd expect it would continue to survey the nearest body that can be surveyed, right? Wrong, (Auto 7) was it's next target. Hmm, maybe it saw it earlier and decided to go after it? But (Auto 7) is farer away from (5) than the ignored asteroid right next to (Auto 6) is away from (5). So what's the algorithm looking for? And after (Auto 7) it again ignores the nearby asteroid...

Meanwhile another explorer has decided to stop surveying it's asteroid ring and instead was heading toward the sun.

So, whatever the algorithm is looking for, it doesn't make sense, really, it doesn't.


I like to suggest a simple algorithm, that looks for the nearest body, which can be surveyed (or explored, but that's the next step).
I assume each system can be accessed directly. So no need to scan the whole galaxy while an explorer is inside the system. I assume there is a defined radius and if not, well choose one.
Similar should be possible when it comes to a system within a system aka asteroid rings and moons and asteroid fields. They all have a defined orbital around the sun or planet, and asteroid fields have, at least I believe I've always seen so, one named asteroid within any asteroid field.

Back to the simple algorithm.
  1. Start looking at those main bodies, sun and main body at any orbital within a system.
  2. Pick the nearest which can be surveyed by the ship.
  3. Continue within the sub-system targeting the nearest moon or asteroid.
  4. Go to the last processed point (3, 2, 1)
On galaxy level there are also jump and fuel ranges to consider, nebulas may force a ship to take a longer, saver route.
Within systems ship have to check your fuel before heading toward the next body. But that's standard procedure, doesn't affect a simple algorithm.
No need for a sophisticated algorithm to find the best possible, most fuel preserving route which obviously would have to take every other (nearby) explorer into account, not to forget the friendly empires sharing their findings or an upcoming spy result revealing unknown bodies that could be skipped when successful.
Just a simple, short algorithm instead of zigzagging explorers wasting Caslon another galaxy could life of ;)
And besides players spending less hours at shrinks and hair stylists, it would help those AI empires to become a bit more competitive, too :)
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WiZz
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by WiZz »

Too complicated. I'd prefer separate option like 'do not survey asteroids'. Asteroids can't provide an interesting stuff anyway.
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Radamanthe
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Radamanthe »

WiZz wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:51 pm Asteroids can't provide an interesting stuff anyway.
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WiZz
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by WiZz »

Ok, true. But it's like 0,1%.
MichaelJ007
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by MichaelJ007 »

Have unexplored bodies in a LIST, so you can prioritise which to explore. Its how the whole game works.
List can be sorted by distance, type, etc.

<< show only star systems>>
<<show only (named) system>>
<<show only (type) systems>>

etc.

A nice explorer automation option would be to prioritise areas of operation (Set home base, exploration range, etc.) just like tactical ranges. Free Exploration can still be an option. But it would be nice to task some explorers to focus on surveying planets within my empire.
Prometheus0000
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Prometheus0000 »

WiZz wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:01 am Ok, true. But it's like 0,1%.
It's more like 2%. Additionally, once you get resource scanners (which scan everything in a range), this isn't a problem at all. Also, the scan time is < 10s for asteroids, it used to be much much higher, like 60s?
Kriegsspieler
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Kriegsspieler »

How do you know it's as high as 2%? That seems too high to me, because I cannot recall ever receiving a special bonus from an asteroid. But I'll admit that my playing has only been sporadic of late, as I await some more balancing work on the game. So maybe it's just a matter of a small sample size in my experience.

In any case, I would happily have a directive telling my explorers not to waste time exploring asteroids, even on the off chance that you miss a research bonus somewhere. To me it's largely a waste of time, once you have enough construction resources.
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Thineboot
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Thineboot »

Thineboot wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 pm [...]
So, whatever the algorithm is looking for, it doesn't make sense, really, it doesn't.
[...]
Whether it's 0.1% or 2% or any other chance, what's the difference, except for the unknown actual chance.

It comes down to the de jure leader, you, the player, and the de facto leader, An Illegitimate orders giving captain in charge of an explorer you, the player, have ordered to survey a specific area.

Wasting precious Caslon and time in the early game doing what they want instead of what you order them to do, well, there is no keelhauling in space. Just because a captain feels that surveying asteroids is boring and taking a look at the sun is much more fascinating doesn't entitle them to go rouge.
MichaelJ007 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:34 pm Have unexplored bodies in a LIST, so you can prioritise which to explore. Its how the whole game works.
List can be sorted by distance, type, etc.

<< show only star systems>>
<<show only (named) system>>
<<show only (type) systems>>

etc.

A nice explorer automation option would be to prioritise areas of operation (Set home base, exploration range, etc.) just like tactical ranges. Free Exploration can still be an option. But it would be nice to task some explorers to focus on surveying planets within my empire.
Sounds like the next step, giving us more options, to go where we want them to go.
Prometheus0000 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:05 am[...]
Additionally, once you get resource scanners (which scan everything in a range), this isn't a problem at all. Also, the scan time is < 10s for asteroids, it used to be much much higher, like 60s?
Thineboot wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 pm[...]
There were a few improvements.
[...]
However, especially early slow explorers are following strange algorithms when it comes to survey.
[...]
Kriegsspieler wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:10 pm [...]
In any case, I would happily have a directive telling my explorers not to waste time exploring asteroids, even on the off chance that you miss a research bonus somewhere. To me it's largely a waste of time, once you have enough construction resources.
That's your decision and explorers should do what you tell them to do. At the moment, they don't.


Let me add a few more details to my initial post. This was in my home system and only Skip Drive was available. I had three explorers and they were set to explore as fast as possible as much as possible. I skipped the sun for reasons and the three asteroid belts were targeted last. So our general understanding of asteroids is not as far apart as it might seem.

Basic Scanners are slow and can only deal with a single object. Crawling with Ion Drives back and forth instead of going from one asteroid to the next doesn't make any sense, under no circumstances - except when you know for game editing reasons...

Once you have a bunch of explorers doing what you hope they will do, you don't watch them anymore. The algorithm will still be the same. And it will slow down space exploration on a bigger scale.

Just think of a captain James T. Kirk warping around, ignoring your commands, because he... ok, ok, bad example, it was a script, he did what was written the night before he entered the set. But you get what I mean, right?

You may check out [1.0.4.1] Auto-Scout Systems: all explorer heading to the same system, too.
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Thineboot
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Thineboot »

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Thineboot
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Thineboot »

Another example of a private captain taking the scenic route for no reason at all...
The blue dotted route is well established without any dangerous locations.

The actual pathfinding algorithms are a mystery to human brains, we see that it doesn't make sense.
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Scott2933
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Scott2933 »

Kriegsspieler wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:10 pm How do you know it's as high as 2%? That seems too high to me, because I cannot recall ever receiving a special bonus from an asteroid. But I'll admit that my playing has only been sporadic of late, as I await some more balancing work on the game. So maybe it's just a matter of a small sample size in my experience.

In any case, I would happily have a directive telling my explorers not to waste time exploring asteroids, even on the off chance that you miss a research bonus somewhere. To me it's largely a waste of time, once you have enough construction resources.
It's rare but every game I get at least one asteroid that has a research bonus (so you can build a research base there). I've had more than one in a game as well.
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Radamanthe
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Radamanthe »

Scott2933 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:37 pm It's rare but every game I get at least one asteroid that has a research bonus (so you can build a research base there). I've had more than one in a game as well.
Sometimes even insanely juicy (same game):
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First thing I did was to find the nearest lazy construction ship to order him to build there.
BrokenCanoe
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by BrokenCanoe »

Asteroids make great refueling stops. I'm finding that most roids have Casilon as well
mordachai
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by mordachai »

MichaelJ007 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:34 pm A nice explorer automation option would be to prioritise areas of operation (Set home base, exploration range, etc.) just like tactical ranges. Free Exploration can still be an option. But it would be nice to task some explorers to focus on surveying planets within my empire.
I'm fond of a solution along these lines -
a simple slider between "prioritize nearby/deep" vs. "prioritize far/shallow" seems like enough for me.
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Thineboot
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Re: [Suggestion] Survey Asteroid Rings etc.

Post by Thineboot »

Just restarted in [1.0.4.9] and Exploration Ships still ignore Planets, Moons, and central bodies in favor of Asteroids.

As long as you your Exploration Range is zero (0) scanning asteroids are a time intensive matter. So please give them priority based on the Exploration Range of your Exploration Ship.
When you order an Exploration Ship to Survey [Asteroid] take on the whole cluster/ring before going to the next possible target based on your Ship automation.

This problem goes away as soon as your Exploration Ships have Resource Scanners. Until than it either needs a massive micromanaging effort by the player or results in tons of asteroids showing up in New Mining Locations while most of the bigger bodies like Planets, Moons, Suns, and Black holes are lacking exploration.
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