Range circles

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tyronec
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Range circles

Post by tyronec »

The basic concept started from the idea that escorts must meet up and fly with slower bombers, thus, by the time they arrive at the target, they have less fuel available than aircraft that fly out to the target location. Is this all simplified and not 100% accurate. You bet it is. Gary's system of putting patrol over a ground battle was something he added for a number of reasons. It does take control away from the player, but it is attempting to make sure there are some fighters over a ground battle. It's more liberal with these, allowing them to fly out to the further range instead of using escort range. We're juggling things in the air game, and part of the juggling is between trying to keep things easier for players and easier for the AI, but also allowing lots of player (micro)management in a lot of areas. If we limited Patrols to escort range, we'd probably see more cases of bombers getting no protection at all, especially by the AI (I know some of you don't care about the AI, but the overwhelming majority of users play against the AI).

Trying to get more control of air directives during the ground phase would be a huge change in the system, requiring lots of rework and a huge risk of new problems being added. This would involve Pavel's time, as he wrote all the air phase AD design, but only some of the ground phase air code. The list of work for Pavel, including some of the air items that can and will eventually get looked at is already long enough (like the low chance of intercept of GA ADs). Redesigning the basic system isn't going to happen. We do agree there is confusion with the color circles that we could have handled better and hope to improve in the future.
There are two questions here. One is whether patrol should have greater range than escort. I would argue not, at present for air cover we have GS escort, AS and Patrol. Of these Escort and AS have the shorter range, AS uses up fuel and ops losses even when there is no combat while Patrol can cover a greater area and uses up no resources unless there is combat. And yet it can deliver a high percentage of fighters to a combat even at it's maximum range. To provide cover to those end of range hexes it would have to be flying a lot of patrols and the game doesn't expend any resources for it to do that.
However this is just my opinion about the game design and I can accept that there are the considerations about fighters flying escort with bombers and further just because I disagree with a design element it doesn't detract from playing the game.

The second question is about the range circles. Fighter range circles are important, I use them all the time both for planning the ground war and for positioning aircraft for GS and fighter cover. And fighters on the same 'orders' have differing range circles depending on how the engine decides to use them for a particular combat. In other words one of the tools we are using to play the game is not working in play. Do the benefits of having two different ranges for fighters outweigh the cost to playability because of this. I would say no, my preference would be to have just one range for fighters whether they are on escort, AS or patrol. Should it be the shorter range or the longer one, am not sure - possibly the longer one because I think the game underestimates the ability of fighter air groups to move forwards to newly captured grass airstrips.
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tyronec
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

Looking at this combat:
There are 20 fighters at Pskov, 3 hexes from the battle.
There are 65 fighters at Ostrov, 6 hexes from the battle.
These two groups are tasked as escorts so effectively are flying along the flight path to the battle, a maximum of 6 hexes to protect. There are 66 fighters on escort. All well and good.

There are 32 fighters at Valmeria. They are out of range to escort so can only engage in the battle as part of their patrol. Their patrol radius is around 14 hexes so they have around 600 hexes to cover.
There are 13 fighters at the battle on patrol.
How is this possible, 32 fighters to cover 600 hexes and 13 of them turn up at a battle which is at maximum range and outside friendly territory. I can get the logic of patrol aircraft intercepting enemy bombers over friendly territory but the only way it makes sense for these fighters to turn up at this battle is if they were on some kind of escort duty.

If this were a one off then fair enough but it is happening often
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tyronec
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

Now I am really confused. Here is a battle showing fighters on 'escort' outside of their range, looks like they were using a staging base.
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Re: Range circles

Post by Joel Billings »

I can't explain how the escorts are getting that far, unless they are automatically using drop tanks if available.
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tyronec
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

I can't explain how the escorts are getting that far, unless they are automatically using drop tanks if available.
The combat report shows they are not using drop tanks.
Save files attached.
Escort shows the above combat.
Escort1 is the set up, attack Riga with one of the mot regiments, some of the time you get Escorts. It is interesting that you ALWAYS get about 20 fighters on patrol.

The key is to have taken Jelgava airport, if it is taken you can get escorts, if it has not been taken then there are never escorts. So the engine must be using this as a staging base.
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I have not been using GS much in the games I have been playing over the past few months. In my Axis Campaign games they have all ended in '41 one way or the other and have not been using the Luftwaffe bombers at all until the present game with Toxic where this issue came up. In my StB as Soviets game with Rosencrantus he had air domination because I made a mess of using the VVS.
However from this it looks like a player can project GS beyond fighter escort range because you can rely on large numbers of patrol aircraft will turning up. At least that is going to work during your movement phase because you can regulate the GS to only use it when within patrol range.
However you could not risk leaving GS on during the enemy phase because of
1. the risk of a lot of combats and losing a lot of fighters to ops and
2. the risk of losing a lot of bombers if there were a combat out of patrol/escort range.
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Elouda
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Re: Range circles

Post by Elouda »

Just a quick theory, but unless WITE does something different with how it calculates ranges, some of GGs games (WITP mainly from personal experience) calculate aircraft range as hexes. What this means is that the 'actual' range 'circle' is off, as on a hexmap a 'range' circle is actually a large hex.

This means that in the hex corner directions, a real drawn circle of that range is understated, and in the hex face directions, it is overstated.

If you count up the hexes to the combats from the airbase and get less than your range/hex scale, then this is probably the cause.
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Re: Range circles

Post by DarkHorse2 »

Guys,

This was not necessarily "Gary's" thing, but is commonly used in simulating combat aircraft ranges.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radius_of_action

However, as a rule of thumb, it is typical for a Radius of Action to be calculated as Range / 3. Gary was somewhat more conservative by using Range / 4 for combat escort range. :(

But, where it really starts getting weird is taking this same formula (Range / 3) and applying it to air transport missions, as if they are making a bombing run. :roll: This is not the case at all, especially for Airbase<->Airbase transport missions.

Following is a very interesting source for the P-51H, Sept 1944:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... -8284.html

... and another here:
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/38801.html
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tyronec
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

This is T5 of my game with Toxic.
Combat during Soviet T4.
The FB-Bombers are outside of their range circle (the battle shown ts the one clearly outside the range circle).

So there are two issues from this thread:
Are the ranges what they should be.
The range circles are not correct - can see this for Patrol (because they have the extra range), Escort (because they are using staging bases) and Bombers (I think they are probably using staging bases too based from what I saw of GS and the 'air action lines' that show up for battles for exactly these same hexes during the Axis turn).
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Last edited by tyronec on Mon May 23, 2022 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DarkHorse2
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Re: Range circles

Post by DarkHorse2 »

Sometimes, I have found, they may use staging bases, which I believe may also extend their range.

However, it is very unpredictable and impossible to plan around. :(
Stamb
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Re: Range circles

Post by Stamb »

i hope this will be fixed soon, otherwise nobody knows what to actually expect from an air war
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Re: Range circles

Post by DarkHorse2 »

Stamb wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:50 pm i hope this will be fixed soon, otherwise nobody knows what to actually expect from an air war
No argument.

There is a lot in the current air-combat system I would love to see improved.
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Hardradi
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Re: Range circles

Post by Hardradi »

tyronec wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:23 am
The key is to have taken Jelgava airport, if it is taken you can get escorts, if it has not been taken then there are never escorts. So the engine must be using this as a staging base.
Quite interesting. I was thinking that perhaps they are flying escort only part of the way and the returning to base but I can see them in the combat report as fighting A2A. I also upped Escorts to 300%, still only 12 flew as Escorts.

This is interesting. Here, where Escorts flew, you can see a black line flying from Memel to Jelgava and on to Riga. So it does appear that Jelgava is being used as a staging base.
Image

Where Escort do not fly, there is no black line going to Jelgava from Memel. You can also see black lines from Suwalki and Radczki, these must be 110s also using Jelgava as a staging base. These are also seen above. The main effort flies along the red line from Memel, I presume:
Image


This doesn't help answer your questions about the Escorts exceeding their range but you can get a different view of the range circles by clicking on the air base. You can then also hover over the group and see the two different numbers in hexes (in either view).

Image
Stamb
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Re: Range circles

Post by Stamb »

so we have radius for planes, radius for an airbase - 11/15 range for a Memel in description, visual representation of a radius for an airbase
so there should be 4 hexes between them
but on a map i can see 6-7 hexes between green and purple circles
also Joel wrote that in some case range is 4/3 of what is described for a planes

its just a headache to try and understand where your planes gonna fly
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

The range circle you get from selecting Memel was distorted because there was a recon group there. When it is moved out you get this picture which reflects the escort/patrol difference.

It is also unworkable that you get useful information from clicking on the airbase that is different from selecting the air group because as far as I can tell you cannot access this airbase information if there is a unit on the hex.
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The line from the manual (am guessing - not sure where you got it) that states that there is a low chance of interception a long way out is I think incorrect. I must have done 20 or so attacks on Riga while testing this and there was 100% patrol aircraft turning up. We know that in game the percentage is not that high so there must be some criteria.
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Re: Range circles

Post by Stamb »

are there any reasons to look onto airbase range instead of clicking onto unit and enable his range circles?
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

are there any reasons to look onto airbase range instead of clicking onto unit and enable his range circles?
It looks like you get patrol and escort range from the airbase but just escort range from the air group - for fighters.
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Re: Range circles

Post by Stamb »

1.what happens if you have different planes with different ranges
will airbase display different ranges?
what happens if there are other planes, recon or bombers, or transport in the same airbase

2. Hardradi showed an example with recon and fighters in the same base
as a result purple range was for a recon and green for a fighters in escort? in that case there is no patrol range for fighters?
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tyronec
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Re: Range circles

Post by tyronec »

1.what happens if you have different planes with different ranges
will airbase display different ranges?
what happens if there are other planes, recon or bombers, or transport in the same airbase

2. Hardradi showed an example with recon and fighters in the same base
as a result purple range was for a recon and green for a fighters in escort? in that case there is no patrol range for fighters?
1. It shows the max range and the escort range.
2. Yes

I would say that I have only recently started looking at this and am not claiming to be an authority, just saying what I have seen form a few examples.
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Hardradi
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Re: Range circles

Post by Hardradi »

tyronec wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:53 am The range circle you get from selecting Memel was distorted because there was a recon group there. When it is moved out you get this picture which reflects the escort/patrol difference.

It is also unworkable that you get useful information from clicking on the airbase that is different from selecting the air group because as far as I can tell you cannot access this airbase information if there is a unit on the hex.
I agree. Also, I haven't figured out any way to get the airbase view if there is a land unit on it.
The line from the manual (am guessing - not sure where you got it) that states that there is a low chance of interception a long way out is I think incorrect. I must have done 20 or so attacks on Riga while testing this and there was 100% patrol aircraft turning up. We know that in game the percentage is not that high so there must be some criteria.
Yes, its from the original manual (same statement is in the WitW manual, from memory).
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