Flipping Norway worth it?

[gremlok]

In Mp games where the Allies are pummelling the Norway convoys, does it make sense to pour 150-250 mpp into diplo and have Oslo become friends of the Furhrer?

Is this done regularly and if so what’s the typical timing to have Norway join the Axis?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Optional. Haven't seen it done much. But what do I know.

[ThunderLizard11]

Norway joins Axis by event in April '40 so no way Allies could flip before then

[OxfordGuy3]

Norway joins Axis by event in April '40 so no way Allies could flip before then

The OP was talking about trying to make Norway an Axis ally. The April 1940 event makes Norway an Axis-occupied country, not an ally and can be skipped by the Axis, if desired.

[ThunderLizard11]

Norway joins Axis by event in April '40 so no way Allies could flip before then

The OP was talking about trying to make Norway an Axis ally. The April 1940 event makes Norway an Axis-occupied country, not an ally and can be skipped by the Axis, if desired.

OK but why bother?

[gremlok]

Flipping provides the Axis with the Norwegian forces. Not sure what units Norway will field but curious about the math if I calculate what forces I could gain vs the diplo cost for flipping vs the 200 mpp cost for the event.

[Bavre]

Flipping provides the Axis with the Norwegian forces. Not sure what units Norway will field but curious about the math if I calculate what forces I could gain vs the diplo cost for flipping vs the 200 mpp cost for the event.

Norway has 3 garrisons and a DD, all half strength or lower without upgrades.
It is also not necessary to do any diplo, the Allies raiding alone pushes Norway slowly but steadily towards the Axis. However the Allies can easily invade Norway just before it joins the Axis, Oslo's initial defense is very weak.
Other advantages of having them join the Axis are:
-no Partisans
-stuff can theoretically go up to str 10, however you need a rail line to Berlin for that (= Sweden, Finland and Leningrad must be yours)
-no diplo hit for invading them (that's actually quite a bit of money the Allies don't get in the long run)

[gremlok]

Thanks, that’s what I was looking for.

[OxfordGuy3]

To get full supply in Norway the Axis only need a clear rail line through Leningrad and Finland, they don't need Sweden (but may have done in an earlier patch). You can operate from Germany to Norway via just the Leningrad>Finland route.

Still not sure it's worth trying to get Norway as an Axis ally. There are better Diplo targets - even Sweden, doesn't give Germany any extra income (all comes through convoy anyway, but that also applies to Norway), but has a good army, a fighter and a (I think) the largest navy of any minor (2 CAs, 1 CL and 2 DDs, also can build another CL, which are useful units Germany can't build), all at Strength 10 (unlike with Spain's units). Sweden is also much easier to defend than Spain. It is harder to get Sweden as an Axis ally from Norway, though.

[Bavre]

Hmm, to me it looks like the only rail line up there goes through the Swedish town Lulea. Maybe you're thinking of the WiE map? There you don't need Sweden for the link to Norway.
Also getting Sweden to join the Axis gives almost double convoy $$$ after you have Leningrad and Finland and stuff goes up to 10. Had the situation in a recent match. A convoy just collects the assigned countries output, so it isn't a fixed value any more after said country is in the war. And getting both Sweden and Norway and the direct rail link almost doubles both convoys and makes Scandinavia super defensive with the ability to operate units arround. Unfortunatelly it is highly unlikely an experienced Allies player will let it come that far.

[OxfordGuy3]

Ah, yes, I'm thinking of War in Europe for the rail link from Norway to Finland. I play the former game more, as much prefer the scope and scale of it.

Yes, good point about the value of Sweden's convoys increasing if there is a rail connection through Finland and Leningrad.

[EarlyDoors]

[Why] does a neutral but pro-Axis Norway continue to mobilise around 1-3% per turn even after the Allies stop raiding its convoy?

[BillRunacre]

Are there Allied naval units, including Transports, on or adjacent to the convoy line?

They don't need to be in raid mode to trigger the script, their presence alone will do that.

[EarlyDoors]

Are there Allied naval units, including Transports, on or adjacent to the convoy line?

They don't need to be in raid mode to trigger the script, their presence alone will do that.

Yes there are!

ok great, many thx

[Tanaka]

Flipping provides the Axis with the Norwegian forces. Not sure what units Norway will field but curious about the math if I calculate what forces I could gain vs the diplo cost for flipping vs the 200 mpp cost for the event.

Norway has 3 garrisons and a DD, all half strength or lower without upgrades.
It is also not necessary to do any diplo, the Allies raiding alone pushes Norway slowly but steadily towards the Axis. However the Allies can easily invade Norway just before it joins the Axis, Oslo's initial defense is very weak.
Other advantages of having them join the Axis are:
-no Partisans
-stuff can theoretically go up to str 10, however you need a rail line to Berlin for that (= Sweden, Finland and Leningrad must be yours)
-no diplo hit for invading them (that's actually quite a bit of money the Allies don't get in the long run)

So I tried this in my current MP game when my opponent basically reduced Norway convoys to 0 every turn. So I decided to let Norway turn Axis instead of invade. But it took so long and I lost so much MPP that I have decided it is still more worth it for the Allies to stop Norway convoys and let them eventually go Axis. And thus it is more worth it for Germany to invade Norway than let them go Axis. I think a solution for this would be for Norway convoys to be more valuable if Norway were Axis? Or maybe more units? Axis Norway only gives me 24 MPP per turn. There needs to be more reward for an Axis Norway in my opinion. I won't be not invading again in my games.

[Bavre]

The main reason for me was always avoiding aggro anyway. I forgot the exact numbers, but a while back I did the math on the extra $$$ the US get from those % in mobilization while they are at peace, and it was surprisingly substantial.

Also Oslo harbor is only str 5 and within range of the GB stratbomber once it gets range tech 1. So GB can just reduce it below 5 and the convoy goes back to Narvik. Or keep both Oslo and Narvik harbor <5 and the convoy is gone for good.

[Nginear]

My current game my opponent hit the convoys so that Norway was over 50% Axis. I accidently hit "esc" on the Norway Invasion prompt, which apparently treats it as a "no." So I decided to diplo them...no....no it is not worth it to diplo them. Some measly garrisons and a half baked DD. You can only build 1 Corp and 1 HQ with soft limits.

The money is better spent on Sweden or Vichy or somewhere else.

[Tanaka]

My current game my opponent hit the convoys so that Norway was over 50% Axis. I accidently hit "esc" on the Norway Invasion prompt, which apparently treats it as a "no." So I decided to diplo them...no....no it is not worth it to diplo them. Some measly garrisons and a half baked DD. You can only build 1 Corp and 1 HQ with soft limits.

The money is better spent on Sweden or Vichy or somewhere else.

Agreed. You get less units than if you invade. There still really needs to be more of a reason for the Allies to not sit on the convoys every turn. The Axis should get some sort of benefit of an Axis Norway but as of now they still do not.

[Tanaka]

The main reason for me was always avoiding aggro anyway. I forgot the exact numbers, but a while back I did the math on the extra $$$ the US get from those % in mobilization while they are at peace, and it was surprisingly substantial.

Also Oslo harbor is only str 5 and within range of the GB stratbomber once it gets range tech 1. So GB can just reduce it below 5 and the convoy goes back to Narvik. Or keep both Oslo and Narvik harbor <5 and the convoy is gone for good.

Avoiding aggro? What is aggro? And yeah ports have no defense against Strat Bombers.

[Argothair]

Aggro is short for aggression. If you invade Norway, then the US perceives it as aggressive and increases its mobilization, which increases the US's total income over the course of the game. When Germany invades Norway, the US probably profits more than Germany does -- the US economy is what, about 800 MPPs? So if you increase US mobilization by 5%, they are now earning an extra 40 MPPs per turn every turn until they would have been at 100% anyway -- and you're very unlikely as Germany to be losing 40 MPPs/turn in Norwegian convoys, plus you have to pay up front to invade Norway.

So, yeah, probably not worth it to invade Norway for the cash...but I have had success in many games invading Norway in order to have it as a base of operations for submarine campaigns in the north Atlantic, and/or as a staging ground for Operation Sea Lion. From Norway you have decent access to Scotland, which doubles how many resources the UK has to guard.