Is it worth putting 'ordnance' in the game?

[LoBlo]

DW2 seems to be a game of logistics.

I used to play a lot of Space Empires 5 from Malfador Machinations and one of the logistical complexities making their game fun was "ordnance". They separated "ordnance" from supplies. Supplies were fuel consumed to power propulsion and energy weapons, ordnance were consumed when firing kinetic or missile weapons. Missiles used all ordnance and no supplies. Lasers used all supplies and no ordnance. Some weapons were in between like railguns which used less ordnance than missiles but some supplies when firing.

It was interesting to design ships based off of a balance of ship supplies to manage the distance it could travel, and ship ordnance, to manage how much fighting it could do before. Your attack strategies and ship designs interacted that way.

The selection of weapons to research was more interesting as well. Weapons likes lasers had advantages in that they did not require separate ordnance loads to be designed into the ship and the ship could fight as long as they had fuel and thus provided more logistical freedom. Weapons like missiles packed a bigger punch, but took away from the ships endurance as ordnance loads had to be designed into the ship and subtracted from its endurance.

I'm wondering if adding this type of gameplay would make DW2 even more interesting. One of the cheats I see in my strategy is that I load up battleships with torpedo launchers and fuel and send them deep into enemy systems toward their capital. When unleashed these battleship fleets shoot probably thousands of missiles and don't think anything of it since only fuel accounts from their staying-power. Its a cheat to watch these fleets conduct bombardment upon bombardment without running out of missiles.

There's a lot about the game that already needs fixing and debugging, so this would be low on the totem pole, but if anyone wants to look at that type of ordnance system in the future, just take a look at space empires 5 to see what I mean.

Cheers.

[mordachai]

It would add another dimension for the AIs to struggle with, perhaps?

I could see it being a little simpler and treating it a bit light fighter-craft - where missiles and bombs have a stockpile - maybe the weapons themselves have stockpile levels - and the ability to generate munitions on the fly at some constant rate (similar to fighters being repaired / constructed).

That way you can fire at max ROF for a while, but then you slow way down due to burning through your stockpile of munitions.

There could of course be ship-systems that improve your munitions generation rates and/or stockpile limits, giving you greater staying power.

This then doesn't need as much complexity of management and reengineering the game to support, albeit it's not quite as detailed as SE5's system.

I like it conceptually, but am wary of adding yet more for the AI to handle poorly.

---

Note too: one of the current advantages of missile systems in DW:2 is its low energy cost to operate. Regenerating missiles as I have described it would spike energy use costs once you burned through your stockpiles - which I don't believe this game has a way to model either.

If the regeneration is done by external components - then their static cost be highish to account for that - but again - the game as-is doesn't have a way to model when such a component should be at low energy use v. high (it's not firing like a weapon, but it follows similar rules - once the weapon needs replenishment, such an internal manufacturing system should kick on - ostensibly the second that the primary weapons begin firing and depleting their stocks rather than waiting for a near-empty condition).

All of this takes thinking - UI to help the user understand it - AI programming - etc. Cool thing to have in-game on some level, tho.

[LoBlo]

It would add another dimension for the AIs to struggle with, perhaps?

I could see it being a little simpler and treating it a bit light fighter-craft - where missiles and bombs have a stockpile - maybe the weapons themselves have stockpile levels - and the ability to generate munitions on the fly at some constant rate (similar to fighters being repaired / constructed).

That way you can fire at max ROF for a while, but then you slow way down due to burning through your stockpile of munitions.

There could of course be ship-systems that improve your munitions generation rates and/or stockpile limits, giving you greater staying power.

This then doesn't need as much complexity of management and reengineering the game to support, albeit it's not quite as detailed as SE5's system.

I like it conceptually, but am wary of adding yet more for the AI to handle poorly.

---

Note too: one of the current advantages of missile systems in DW:2 is its low energy cost to operate. Regenerating missiles as I have described it would spike energy use costs once you burned through your stockpiles - which I don't believe this game has a way to model either.

If the regeneration is done by external components - then their static cost be highish to account for that - but again - the game as-is doesn't have a way to model when such a component should be at low energy use v. high (it's not firing like a weapon, but it follows similar rules - once the weapon needs replenishment, such an internal manufacturing system should kick on - ostensibly the second that the primary weapons begin firing and depleting their stocks rather than waiting for a near-empty condition).

All of this takes thinking - UI to help the user understand it - AI programming - etc. Cool thing to have in-game on some level, tho.

Interesting idea. SE5 implemented it into their AI ship design without problems though. What they did is have certain races concentrate on certain weapon types. Missiles for one race, with designs and research based of missiles. Railguns for another, lasers for another. Wasn't too difficult.

Building off your idea, perhaps a simple tweak to the ship cargo components would suffice, where the cargo capacity would be a part of the weapons stores. It would have to be separate from typical cargo though.

[solops]

No.
This was discussed back in DW1. The idea is bad on so, so many levels.

[LoBlo]

No.
This was discussed back in DW1. The idea is bad on so, so many levels.

Link to the discussions please.

And your post is bad on so, so many levels!

[rxnnxs]

I would also like to know how such an ordonance cargo would be bad.
It is someting that really makes sense and, as already said, adds one more extra thought/dimension to it.
You have to have a supply line, so lets say also ordonance freighters.
Besides SEV it reminds me of Star Ruler 2.
In Star Ruler 2, there was such a missile cargo, and after it was empty, the ship generated such ammunition, but shot missiles and such at a lower rate. If I remember correct...

[Lunalis]

this reminds me of the oooold game M.A.X. that also had fuel and ammo and you had to move it with trucks to your combat units.

i think it wouldnt even be too difficult to add. it could just work similar to how fuel works.
as example:
-caslon+steel at a planet produces "ammo" (maybe in a planetary building)
-or easier: any colony gets ammo as a new recource added to the planet and produces more of it the more population you have or the higher the colony development % is.
-stations would get it by freighters the same as they get fuel.
-ships could load it up on stations/planets.
-a new shiptype "monitor? ammo barge?" that works basically similar to the fuel tanker would supply ships and fleets with it.
-and for ships you have a new module that works the same as fuel storage just for ammo. (some ships probably need 1-3 more basic slots then to equip these)
-maybe you could build a "ammo factory" on starports that works kinda like a smal mining module and "creates" more ammo on the colony additionally to what the colony produces itsself.. so if you lack enough ammo you could add them factories to starports to get a extra boost.

i guess the hardest part for a "ammo mod" might be to add a new "bar/statistic" to ships/stations that is under the "fuel bar". and to add it to weapons so they "use" it.
i guess like switching weapons from using ship energy to ammo?

it would make fighters fly back to the carrier to rearm, and could prevent one fleet to steamroll planet after planet, if they have to resupply ammo. if orbital bombardments would cost extra much ammo and you really need a supply line to bombard a planet for months.

maybe defensive starbases would have a +200% ammo storage modifier... so compared to normal stations and starports these ones can fight fleets way longer and are more viable to use.

[btd64]

DW2 seems to be a game of logistics.

I used to play a lot of Space Empires 5 from Malfador Machinations and one of the logistical complexities making their game fun was "ordnance". They separated "ordnance" from supplies. Supplies were fuel consumed to power propulsion and energy weapons, ordnance were consumed when firing kinetic or missile weapons. Missiles used all ordnance and no supplies. Lasers used all supplies and no ordnance. Some weapons were in between like railguns which used less ordnance than missiles but some supplies when firing.

It was interesting to design ships based off of a balance of ship supplies to manage the distance it could travel, and ship ordnance, to manage how much fighting it could do before. Your attack strategies and ship designs interacted that way.

The selection of weapons to research was more interesting as well. Weapons likes lasers had advantages in that they did not require separate ordnance loads to be designed into the ship and the ship could fight as long as they had fuel and thus provided more logistical freedom. Weapons like missiles packed a bigger punch, but took away from the ships endurance as ordnance loads had to be designed into the ship and subtracted from its endurance.

I'm wondering if adding this type of gameplay would make DW2 even more interesting. One of the cheats I see in my strategy is that I load up battleships with torpedo launchers and fuel and send them deep into enemy systems toward their capital. When unleashed these battleship fleets shoot probably thousands of missiles and don't think anything of it since only fuel accounts from their staying-power. Its a cheat to watch these fleets conduct bombardment upon bombardment without running out of missiles.

There's a lot about the game that already needs fixing and debugging, so this would be low on the totem pole, but if anyone wants to look at that type of ordnance system in the future, just take a look at space empires 5 to see what I mean.

Cheers.

Adding missile and other "Ordinance" would be a great idea. It would be a game changer for sure. You would have to build factories for these weapon types and maybe a AE type ship to carry these munitions to the front lines. But it would be down the road in terms of implementation. I do like the idea....GP

[Jorgen_CAB]

No.
This was discussed back in DW1. The idea is bad on so, so many levels.

WHY?!?

Fighters already work to some degree like this. In my opinion missiles and torpedoes should also do this. You start with a full storage of munitions and once you burn through it you will have to restock by building new munition in the same way you build fighters. Simplest way to handle munitions in my opinion.

This would give missiles and torpedoes more of a strategic different role from lasers and other beam oriented weapons. Railguns probably don't spend enough munitions in a physical sense to matter, you probably can build them as fast as you spend them considering the technology in this game. Or at least you will never burn through all the stocks in a single engagement anyway.

Missiles and torpedoes already are the most powerful weapons in the game on the grounds they fire 360 and have such good ranges. It would make them more of a choice in my opinion. There also would be a choice of storage for munitions over other components. How long do you want your missiles to last versus greater volley strengths for a shorter period.

[rxnnxs]

Even lets say games like MOO3 had that limit. In a fight, they fire off their missiles and after that sit there as a duck.
If the enemy has good point defense or can shoot down those missiles/torps or survives that massive attack, the enemy has to flee or is shot down afterwards.

It would make even stronger missiles and torpedoes possible, by adding even more range or more damage to it, but limit it to a number.

There would not even a ammo bar needed,
just a limit of ammo for that weapon type. All launchers already would have a rack of some kind with a given storage amount.
If that is fired empty, the ship must "touch" a space port to refill that storage of come near a milk cow / resupply ship.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Even lets say games like MOO3 had that limit. In a fight, they fire off their missiles and after that sit there as a duck.
If the enemy has good point defense or can shoot down those missiles/torps or survives that massive attack, the enemy has to flee or is shot down afterwards.

It would make even stronger missiles and torpedoes possible, by adding even more range or more damage to it, but limit it to a number.

There would not even a ammo bar needed,
just a limit of ammo for that weapon type. All launchers already would have a rack of some kind with a given storage amount.
If that is fired empty, the ship must "touch" a space port to refill that storage of come near a milk cow / resupply ship.

Although... in the Distant Worlds universe the technology is advanced enough you can build new munition and even small crafts as part of the weapons system. All you need is basically energy to do so, but it is slower than just supply energy to a laser.

To be honest, having a replenishing rate much like strike craft is enough but missiles and torpedoes replenish faster than strike crafts though.

This also would be allot more kind to the AI.

[Lunalis]

yop that is why we dont have ammo to take care of as everything is abstracted into energy use instead.
and it works well this way.

but if people really want a ammo simulation too, i guess the best bet for it is to make a mod that adds that...

i rather have the devs work on the "missing" dw1 races and features (all the pirate stuff from dw1) than them changeing how weapons work and ammo.


personally i rather want fighter formations (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p4982971) than weapon ammo.

[Jorgen_CAB]

yop that is why we dont have ammo to take care of as everything is abstracted into energy use instead.
and it works well this way.

but if people really want a ammo simulation too, i guess the best bet for it is to make a mod that adds that...

i rather have the devs work on the "missing" dw1 races and features (all the pirate stuff from dw1) than them changeing how weapons work and ammo.


personally i rather want fighter formations (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p4982971) than weapon ammo.

Well... it would give another dimensions to missiles and torpedoes and make them less overpowered as they ignore firing arcs and range is a huge benefit, especially in larger engagements.

[maggiecow]

On the one hand, virtually every space battle story I read (currently bk 3 of Expeditionary Force series, Paradise - open to suggestions) features resource management of some kind but during battles they're counting torpedoes and missiles for sure.

The Lost Fleet books incorporate industrial ships into the fleet to mine resources and manufacture spares and ammo. Finding the "quiet time" to get this done becomes important.

OTOH, I literally can't remember ordnance from Space Empires, so it must have just been a 5 thing because I played a lot of 4 and very little 5 - or maybe my memory is just shot. I can see it adding something to the game, but it's not like lasers or projectile weapons don't break down as well. If you want to give make missiles realistic then I guess the ship is going to be breaking down and needing servicing on the regular. Two of the fighters won't be launching this sortie because the pilots got into a boxing match. That sort of thing.

EDIT: Should also mention that any realistic depiction of a space battle would probably be completely abstracted because of the maths, raw distance and consequent observational delays involved that it would only be fun for a handful of people. You'd do your calculations, hit fire on a bank of buttons then wait a couple of days to see how the battle turned out, assuming any of your drones made it back to tell you.

[Amoebanzai]

Definitely worth it. I would love DW more, if ordance system is implemented.
Of course, there will be more balance work to do around balancing core mechanics such as combat, logistics, production, resources, which is a good thing