Research and Intelligence, updated complete guide and thoughts.

[AshFall]

This post is an attempt to provide a thorough guide to research and intelligence as it currently stands in SC2:WiE.

It has been updated with additional information and correct values following testing.

I appreciate any corrections and elaborations anyone wants to add a lot, the aim is to provide as correct and clear a picture as possible.

1. Basic Mechanism
For all combatants, each chit invested in a category of research provides a % increase in that research category at the end of each of your own turns.

For current level 0-2 the increase is 5% per chit, with a variance of 50% in each direction. (1C: 3-8% (2.5-7.5), 2C: 5-15%)
For current level 3-4 the increase is 4% per chit, with a variance of 50% in each direction. (1C: 2-6%, 2C: 4-12%)

It seems to be the case that research slows down at higher lvls, at lvl 3 and 4

Once the category reaches a progress of 100%, the next level of research is achieved.

Additional modifiers

Any additional modifiers are added in to the base formula.

As I understand it only fully mobilized majors count here, which means that a Mobilized UK and a Non mobilized USA will not grant any sharing bonuses to each other.

Technology sharing bonus

There are three "blocks" that share technology with one another.
1. The Western Allies: France/USA/UK (Poland is a bit of an odd duck, but isnt really relevant anyway)
2. The USSR stands alone
3. The Axis: Germany and Italy

Within each block the highest level of technology grants a bonus to the others when researching equal to the difference between their levels.

Example: US is at Advanced tanks 0, UK is at Advanced tanks 2. US gains +2% progress per chit.

Catch up bonus

If an enemy major has a higher level of tech the disadvantaged nation gains a bonus equal to the difference per chit invested, similar to the above.

Higher non-mobilized majors techs will not provide catch up to mobilized majors. But higher tech for mobilized Majors -will- grant catch up bonus to non-mobilized majors.

Spying & Intelligence technology

For each level of difference in S&I technology the advantaged side will gain 1% bonus to their advancement per chit. Note though the exceptions of non-mobilized majors, who add their S&I straight on, with no competition.

This means several things as I understand it, using an example of:
Non mobilized US S&I 3
UK S&I 2
Germany S&I 1
Non Mobilized USSR S&I 0
Italy S&I 0

The bonus is actually counted individually. In the below example the UK gains +1 from their S&I 2 vs German S&I 1 even with the USA mobilized in the war with S&I 3, who gets +2. This has been confirmed in testing with fog of war off and the numbers visible on a tool-tip.

Putting it all together

3: Based on the examples and S&I levels above.
A) Non mobilized USSR, lvl 0 Industry technology, has 1 chit invested.
B) Mobilized Germany has lvl 1 with 2 chits invested.
C) Mobilized UK has lvl 2 with 1 chit invested.
D) Non Mobilized USA has lvl 3 with 2 chit invested.
E) Mobilized Italy has lvl 0 with 1 chit invested.

3a: The USSR advances at [5 (base), +0 (No sharing with UK), +1 (German catch up], +0 (No S&I advantage)]. Giving them an advancement range of 3-8%.

3b: Germany advances at: [5+5 (base), +0 (No higher allied tech within block), +1 +1 (German catch up to UK, US is non mobilized], +0 (No S&I advantage)]. Giving them an advancement range of 6-18%

3c: Uk advances at: [5 (base), +0 (No sharing with non mobilized USA), +0 (No enemy with higher tech), +1 (+1 Due to an S&I advantage of 2 vs Germany 1)]. Giving them an advancement range of 3-9%.

3d: USA advances at: [4+4 (base), +0 (No sharing as non mobilized), +0 (No higher enemy tech], +3+3 (US S&I does not "Compete", but does add its bonus completely while not mobilized)]. Giving them an advancement range of 7-21% due to being at lvl 3.

3e: Italy advances at: [5 (base), +1 (Higher German tech), +2 (Italian catch up to UK, US is non mobilized], +0 (No S&I advantage)]. Giving them an advancement range of 4-12%

[PvtBenjamin]

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[AshFall]

Updated the guide with correct numbers, tested through a modded scenario (For clarity, the 1940 scenario with the only changes done being to set the S&I and tech levels to the values shown in the examples in the guide).

This confirms something I have suspected for some time. Investing immediately in US S&I gives them an untouched bonus, not competing with German S&I for the entire time until they are mobilized. It explains the games where the US enters the war with heavy bombers/LRA 3-4.

Bonuses are also counted individually per country, even when mobilised, it is -not- just the highest per side, though the highest S&I does cancel all opposing S&I bonuses. See above for examples.

Comments:
1. I dont like the way this works at the moment. A non mobilized country should not benefit straight out from their own S&I while not competing.

2. I personally also think a difference in S&I level should affect the enemy "Catch up" bonus by the difference in amount. Given how common it is for the USSR to start with infantry weapons lvl 2 in 1941, and the cost for Germany to invest in S&I over other priorities, it would be a reasonable change.

[PvtBenjamin]

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[AshFall]

I'm posting it because many newer players are not as familiar with the nuances of the Research and S&I systems, and the manual can be confusing even for advanced players. It is meant to be a concise and clear summary of all of the aspects of the system and how they interact. Hence the "Updated complete guide" in the title.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be dismissive, but there you are.

What are you basing your statement that the US has accelerated research prior to entry after they have researched S&I on?

If this is the case its contrary to what we've been told in the past and should be addressed.

Just a point out (if you are correct) the obvious if the US invested in S&I aggressively there would only be a short period that it would be +3 and I doubt many Allies players have done this.

As stated I tested this by modding the 1940 scenario to reflect the S&I and industry tech levels I described above for all majors. Disabled fog of war (which means the tool-tip on each research category displays all active bonuses when hovered) and simply checked.

I did so for the US both as non mobilized and mobilized. When it was not mobilized it had +3 from S&I, when mobilized it had +2, and the still UK +1 (as it had all along).

I think it would be an error to believe that this would only be strong for a lvl 3 S&I. The Allies generally have 40 turns until the US enters the war. 11%/2 rounds, one breakthrough every 18 rounds on average.

If invested early the US has a very good chance of attaining lvl 1 somewhere between round 16 and 20. From then on every single other research category has +1%, including on breakthroughs. That is not bad at all. Lvl 2 has a good chance of being done 13 rounds after that, so anywhere between round 29 and 33. From then on +2 until the war entry.

If the USSR invests (given a standard attack right after allied turn 30) they should have 10-14 turns of +1 to all their own tech, which is not bad at all.

I obviously do not think it should work this way. I firmly believe non mobilized majors should compete with mobilized enemy S&I, and I also believe a disadvantage in S&I for your "block" should penalize the "catch up" bonus (only, not the sharing bonus).

[PvtBenjamin]

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[AshFall]

See above (now edited with bold text for emphasis).

[PvtBenjamin]

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[AshFall]

But you are saying the US gets accelerated research until the enter the war if the research S&I which the manual isn't true.

This has also been discussed extensively in prior threads with the conclusion that non mobilized countries don't get the S&I boost.

I attached the manual.

What are you basing this statement on?

Please supply the data. It should be on the '39 scenario with extensive data showing statistical signficance that the research is higher.

If you mod a scenario with the values provided and start it in "hot seat mode", -turning off fog of war-, the research displays a tool-tip showing all bonuses.

[PvtBenjamin]

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[PvtBenjamin]

Don't get me wrong you may have discovered a major bug. You just need to show the proof because it should be changed.

[AshFall]

NO You are making a Bold statement here. Please supply the data. Just send the screenshot then. If so it should be addressed.

Given your tone from the start of this thread, meant to aid new players and determine the exact workings of the system as well as confirm it for myself, I am honestly not inclined to. Especially as it would be extremely easy for you to check for yourself.

This is on the very first turn of the modded scenario, please observe the tool tip as stated.


This is on the second turn, again, please observe the 17% increase, possible only with a working S&I bonus.

[PvtBenjamin]

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[AshFall]

I can't see a thing but if you are correct it is from my knowledge and the manual a bug and should be corrected.

Don't be so sensitive.

Maybe be a tad more courteous when someone spends time and effort to write a guide for the forums (that might or might not be aimed at you) instead of whatever that was? I do appreciate the editing of your post to be less abrasive after the fact, edited in a similar vein to match.

Also, resized the images for you.

Further tests confirm that between Industry lvl 0-2, given lvl 3 S&I by non mobilized US and Lvl 1 S&I by mobilized Germany, the US receives full benefit. Confirmed hits in the upper range in testing.

One chit


Two chits


At Lvl 3, the values drop to 7-21, nothing else has changed.


The same is true of the UK at lvl 3, instead of the 6-18 they should have by the base formula (5+5, +0, +0, +1 +1) they have 5-15.


This also confirms that research does become harder at lvl 3 than at levels 0-2. Updated the guide to match this information.

[PvtBenjamin]

L.

[AshFall]

The suggestion of further analysis is a good one, and appreciated. I ran additional tests today by clicking through a campaign in hot-seat with fog of war off, and confirmed the numbers.

Yeah, there were three "Aha" moments for me when testing, things I personally did not know despite having played MP a bit.
1. Non mobilized majors getting their full S&I
2. S&I bonus being "granular" inside a block (I.e. UK with lvl 2 gets +1 and Mobi-US at lvl 3 gets +2 vs Germany at S&I 1). The manual can easily be read as -only- the highest bonus counting, I.e. the US +2 here.
3. Research slowing down at lvl 3+

I do believe an additional change to the system to impose a penalty to catch up bonus to disadvantaged blocks would be a good one, and would make S&I an actual choice to make for all nations.

A discussion on the merits of such a change could be useful.

[PvtBenjamin]

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[AshFall]

#2 game is correct ..Only the highest is only for comparison to the enemy so for the Axis 1 is the highest, being US & GB are higher they both get benefit. If Germany were two GB would be negated but the US being higher and still get +1.

#3 I don't remember anything about research slowing after lvl 3 but its possible, so you are seeing reading below the bottom range?

#1 Is from what I know incorrect there should be no S&I benefit for non mobilized countries

Good work finding this

#3 Yeah, confirmed by testing.

Thank you, I appreciate that a lot.

Appreciated also a very good laugh at your edits, wonderfully over the top. Thank you for that, a laugh I very much needed.

[BillRunacre]

Progress to levels 1-3 is at an average of 5% per chit per turn, but to attain levels 4-5 it averages at 4%, so advances do indeed slow down when trying to reach the higher levels.

[Duedman]

Thanks for the research.
I struggled understanding the manual but figured out the same things over time.
Research slows down on higher levels (was not sure whether 3 or 4 tho).
S&I is a must for GE + GB and of no use for the others. Maybe the US could do some stuff with the thing you found out. Super early high level landing craft or something.