A Moderator asks you to stop and think...

[StratmanWITX]

1. I wish this friendly community have fun and further development for this great game.
2. I've been reading this forum almost every day since I bought this game on the second day after its release. And I am grateful to Loki for his help in learning the game. Loki your posts are always informative and useful!
3. Any personal insults are unacceptable!, otherwise this forum will turn into trash.
4. It's a pity that we decided on a monthly ban a little bit late - Loki has already left.
5. Loki will be back, as this game and the community are already part of his life. And it's great for both the community and the game itself.

[56ajax]

I would like to say that I was astonished and then disgusted by the abuse that has been directed against loki.

Loki is a stalwart of the forum who has volunteered his time and has spent much effort in making this a great game.

As such I am underwhelmed by the official penalty and would recommend a permanent ban. Afterall you are only banning the user name and not the user, they can always create another user name. And the ban does not stop them playing the game or reading the forums.

[Mehring]

This post was just reported to me this morning (The Killmaster one)

He has gotten a 1 month ban for that completely unacceptable outburst.

If someone is behaving in this way, please use the report system.

I will come and deal with it.

Our forums are supposed to be friendly and for everyone. I won't tolerate people belittling others like this.

Regards,
Edmon


Note: Banned users cannot use the PM system either. If you get abuse via PM, report that too.

So a user
1) harasses another user by using a photo of them as their avatar
2) sends pornographic images over the PM system
3) uses anti-semitic and anti-disability slurs.

And only gets a 1 month ban?

It is very rare that I would comment on moderation actions but for me it is difficult to think of a more clear-cut example of behavior that warrants a permanent ban....

+1
That post is illegal in the UK and rightly so.

[Aurelian]

That kind of crap being directed at Loki, or anyone else, has no place here. Neither does the one spewing it. I don't care how upset you are at someone or how much you disagree with them. There are better ways to express it.

[Nico165b165]

+1 for a permanent ban. Maybe it's a cultural difference thing, but looking at this from a Belgian perspective, the case for that one post could end up in justice for at least 3 different reasons. It's aggressive, vicious and personnal. There's no way that guy could be seen as a normal contributor after that.

The main topic here about the frontline between defending a point of view and being passive/aggresive is one thing and needs to be dealt with for sure. This guy and his post is another dimension. I would not like to contribute to a forum where such a post and user could stay.

[M60A3TTS]

+1 for a permanent ban.

I would agree if only because tar and feathering has become a lost art.

[ElizabethWizard]

Tarring and feathering? In this economy?

[squatter]

Lapsed player/lurker just wanting to show solidarity with Loki - the best manual writer I've ever encountered, and the most excellent tutor/guide on these forums. Incredibly patient and generous person judged on his contributions to the forum.

Very surprised the racist/homophobic poster wasn't instantly perma-banned. That kind of behaviour needs nipping in the bud and absolutely doesn't warrant a second chance.

[IslandInland]

"Killmaster" should be banned permanently and so should anyone else who displays similar racist and/or anti-semitic views.

I am amazed he only received a month long ban. Also, unbelievably, the offending post is still there right in the thread and has not been deleted or even edited by moderators.

[EwaldvonKleist]

I agree that a permanent ban for killmaster would be appropriate, and a warning for some of the passive aggressive posters too.

Killmasters action is not a strong sentence written in anger, it is a collection of insults that go beyond the usualafter taking the
time to research lokis real life to use his face as a profile image.

Imho a harder hand with regards to temporary and permanent bans is needed. I believe any banned toxic user results in more than one friendly user (re)joining the forum.

Much strength to loki and the mods who have to deal with such behaviour.

[cain012]

I’m a lurker here generally, but I found Loki’s posts to be most helpful. He could be a bit terse but evidently the trigger for that was the users who go out of their way to whine incessantly about the game systems producing results that don’t fit their preconception of Germany as invincible.

Being somewhat aware of the reputation of the “grognard” set of war gamers, and on top of that being aware of the presence of a minority of exclusively Germany-focused players who can’t handle any representation of them as “unable to win World War II” in the player communities of such games, it is distressing to read a comment from a user on a forum of one of the most famous “grognard” type games that not only frighteningly targets another user with photos of them and demonstrates other indications of research into their real identity for the purpose of making them uncomfortable and anxious, but which is also laced with anti-Semitic racist slurs and racist attitudes about the subject of the slur (“stop playing the victim”), and then to see that person get only a one month ban in order to “think about what they’ve done and realize it’s wrong.”

Maybe we’re dealing with an edgelord teenage wehraboo but it seems unlikely. You don’t typically write a thing like that and understand the wrongness of saying it by getting banned from an Internet forum for only a month. That kind of conduct should be extirpated from any war gaming community, especially those dealing with World War II and the “war in the east”. Why would any such community provide a forum for such people? I would probably not be interested in recommending people play the game or associate with its community if they did. I would simply play by myself and think to myself “too bad their forum moderators treat racist conduct with the equivalent of a slap on the wrist.”

This is aside from the fact that every day Loki doesn’t post is a day we’re missing out on valuable info about the game, and even to an extent aside from the unacceptability of targeting people with personal attacks or doxxing. It also cements the reputation of the communities for these games as safe havens for players with Nazi-adjacent attitudes and conduct, who act out the things Nazis could not succeed in achieving in real life via the fantasy of the game. The fact that almost all the complaints about Loki are from players who typically complain about Germany’s inability to defeat the Soviets by turn 20 give further credence to this impression. I can’t imagine the creators of this game would want such people enjoying that fantasy through their game, and contributing their vitriol to its community of players. Maybe because these communities are so relatively small to begin with they need all the players they can get—but this is also a reason why these communities can remain small.

Tl:dr—A permaban for semi-doxxing and racism seems like it should be the default, not the third strike move.

[homer82]

@cain012: Most eloquently spoken, thank you.

[IslandInland]

@cain012: Most eloquently spoken, thank you.

I agree.

That post sums up pretty much how I feel. Loki is integral to the development of this game and his absence is damaging for this forum and the game as a whole.

What is even more damaging is no taking punitive action against the hatred directed at him.

[warspite1]

I saw this thread and felt I had to comment for two reasons:

First and foremost in support of loki - who does not deserve that. I hope this won't keep you away for long loki. Your knowledge, help and support are invaluable and will be missed.

Secondly, I simply don't understand Matrix stance on this. This wasn't someone getting a bit carried away in the heat of an argument and stating something that perhaps deserves a cooling off period. This was targeted, sick abuse to a quite disturbing degree...and over what? A game. Matrix, please have a look at the language used again, have a look at the 'effort' required to use someone's picture in the way that has been done. One month ban? Really? I mean who would welcome back, and want to engage with an individual like that anyway?

[Aurelian]

The only way to stop this is a no tolerance policy. Have we learned nothing from Pelton or Slaakman? Or Mrs Wargamer? Hanny?

History has shown this guy won't change his ways Losing people like Loki is *not* worth hoping they change their ways.

IMHO anyway.

[Edmon]

Now I want to be clear: I am not defending anyone. I have policies to follow and I must follow them dispassionately.

I do agree that sending homophobic porn via private message, in combination with what was said on the forums, is enough for a permanent ban to be enacted.

However, Loki has not at this time, reported the PM chain using the "Report PM" button. I cannot access nor see any PM's unless they have been reported. Once reported, a copy of them would be moved to the moderator queue for actioning. I could then review them and hand out punishments as appropriate.

The PM chain is not something I can action until it is reported, which can be done at any time by clicking the "!" button in the top right corner. This releases the lock on the PM box so that moderators can see what has been said. We are unable to see or action PM's unless they have been reported.

I took the time to go through every post Killmaster has ever made (there were only 90 of them), as it stands, only the post that he got a 1 month ban for (and the avatar change) stands in violation of our rules. Some posts appeared to have been edited but I can't check what they used to say. That's why it's important that posts are reported as when would then get a copy of them as they were at the time they were reported.

As it stands, after a month he will be expected to apologize and change his avatar. If he doesn't, the ban will become permanent.

I hope this clarifies things for everyone. If you want to discuss this further, please PM me.

[Edmon]

I have been given the offending PM's.

Based on the evidence within those, the ban has been made permanent.