Panzers taking massive retreat losses

[FortTell]

Playing a 4v4 game, just finished the first winter. It is the 1st of March 1942, so first winter penalties no longer apply.

We attacked several German tank divisions, and they melted on retreats. Like, 70-90% afvs just died, and they had very few tanks participating in combat. The 5th and 6th PzDivs were ground attacked in our air phase (4 strikes of ~100 planes and 6 strikes of 2x180, 2x100, 2x50 planes, none of that "spam 40 12-plane strikes per hex"), but the 23rd was not, and lost the majority of its tanks on the retreat as well.

Were the divisions just that unready or is there a bug that forced them to abandon so many tanks on retreat?





save before the attacks
save after the attack on 23rd Pz
save before the end of Soviet turn

[Veterin]

Brutal!

[FortTell]

It may be related to many tanks being damaged before combat, because not many enemy tanks actually fought in the battles (according to the "Ground Combat" tab)

6th: 66/184 tanks fought
5th: 2/151 tanks fought
23rd: 15/181 tanks fought

[Stamb]

this is what i was going to type about damaged tanks

[Beethoven1]

I think a bunch of the AFVs became damaged before the battle due to winter attrition. Then since they are damaged, they don't count as participating in the battle. The game makes damaged AFVs become destroyed when a Panzer division retreats (counting as retreat losses), which is why there are so many.

In general, even outside of winter, retreat losses from damaged AFVs seem to be a disproportionately large cause of AFV losses, especially for Germany.

[Stamb]

not only Germans, Soviets lose 70-90% during retreat/route, wanted to talk about it in one AAR but...

[AlbertN]

I think a bunch of the AFVs became damaged before the battle due to winter attrition. Then since they are damaged, they don't count as participating in the battle. The game makes damaged AFVs become destroyed when a Panzer division retreats (counting as retreat losses), which is why there are so many.

In general, even outside of winter, retreat losses from damaged AFVs seem to be a disproportionately large cause of AFV losses, especially for Germany.

Exactly that.
Pratically 75-99% of your Panzers pretty much get damage due to the Winter Rules - and they will still get damaged across March whole if there is a thin layer of snow.

Any retreat will pretty much imply that they're left behind and abandoned as the troops cannot 'drive them' from the repair shops they're at.

[Joel Billings]

I can't speak to the winter attrition and whether that contributed here, but the destruction of damaged vehicles is a big part of retreat attrition. It is very dependent on experience and morale of the retreating force. Is it possible that most of these AFVs were already damaged before the battle even began? It's easy to just look at the top line numbers in the unit and not realize that damaged elements need to be accounted for, because badly damaged units are in trouble if forced to retreat.

[malyhin1517]

It is March 1942 and winter exhaustion is in effect. I returned the tanks to the map too early and they broke down while still moving along the railway. To be honest, I was very surprised by this. Therefore, during the first battle, these tanks were destroyed. In general, I believe that malfunctioning tanks should be removed from the unit and sent for repair, but instead they were unloaded and moved with the unit. This looks illogical to me.

[Jango32]

Did you move them on the map from the Reserve TB? It is currently bugged. It's better to move the Panzer divisions in Italy or western Europe for repairs/refit/avoiding 1941-1942 winter if TB control is active.

[AlbertN]

Did you move them on the map from the Reserve TB? It is currently bugged. It's better to move the Panzer divisions in Italy or western Europe for repairs/refit/avoiding 1941-1942 winter if TB control is active.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=385570

It's something akin to what happened there.

In Soviet Winter (Up to March '42 included) no matter where you are in Russia, you get helluva of damage.
That Panzer depicted there was brought from Reserve and railed.
Exactly as Malyhin depicted - I did the same mistake there.

A player not paying attention will move around their Panzers in winter, seeing 100+ AFV ... when in truth it's all damaged and non operational AFV.
And then lose a bucket of them at the first retreat.

[Joel Billings]

Yes, there is a bug in the current versions that we've fixed in the next beta, where Axis units in the reserve were not repairing damaged equipment. So units with damaged AFVs sent to the reserve would keep all their damaged AFVs as damaged. They might take on replacements, but the AFVs that were already damaged would stay that way. This has been like this since release, where a major chunk of the logistics phase was being skipped for Axis units in the Axis reserve (including morale gain). It was only recently tracked down and fixed. Thanks to those that reported the problem and stayed with it until we understood what was going on.We hope this next beta will go out next week.

[AlbertN]

Yes, there is a bug in the current versions that we've fixed in the next beta, where Axis units in the reserve were not repairing damaged equipment. So units with damaged AFVs sent to the reserve would keep all their damaged AFVs as damaged. They might take on replacements, but the AFVs that were already damaged would stay that way. This has been like this since release, where a major chunk of the logistics phase was being skipped for Axis units in the Axis reserve (including morale gain). It was only recently tracked down and fixed. Thanks to those that reported the problem and stayed with it until we understood what was going on.We hope this next beta will go out next week.

The morale business always worked in Reserves til it got broken Joel.
So I assume also the shedding of damaged tanks.

In my ongoing Axis game I merely took the extra step to send the Panzers to the West for 'repairs'. Longer detour admittedly.
BUT it is definitely fixed in .33 - at least the Morale gain it is and works.

[Joel Billings]

I went back to a version right after release and tested the morale gain, and it did not work. Based on that, I assumed it was broken since release. When Gary found that problem, it looked like the axis reserve had been explicitly excluded from the logistics routines that adjusted morale and dealt with damaged elements. When he fixed morale, he had already fixed the damage issue. We don't know how/why the Axis Reserve box had been excluded, but based on my test, and the clear nature of the fix, it seems this part has been broken from the beginning. I can't guarantee that without putting more time into it. The main thing is it will be fixed in the next beta that goes out to the public.

[Veterin]

Thanks Joel!

[DarkHorse2]

I went back to a version right after release and tested the morale gain, and it did not work. Based on that, I assumed it was broken since release. When Gary found that problem, it looked like the axis reserve had been explicitly excluded from the logistics routines that adjusted morale and dealt with damaged elements. When he fixed morale, he had already fixed the damage issue. We don't know how/why the Axis Reserve box had been excluded, but based on my test, and the clear nature of the fix, it seems this part has been broken from the beginning. I can't guarantee that without putting more time into it. The main thing is it will be fixed in the next beta that goes out to the public.

[malyhin1517]

Did you move them on the map from the Reserve TB? It is currently bugged. It's better to move the Panzer divisions in Italy or western Europe for repairs/refit/avoiding 1941-1942 winter if TB control is active.

No, I don't place my units in reserve because I only play with theater controls unlocked. In November I send all panzer divisions to France and put them back on the map in the spring. But now I will return them in April, not in March. When returning to the map, my units had almost 100% serviceable tanks, but on the very first turn on the map during transportation from Germany to Russia, almost all the tanks suddenly became out of order. Only the placement of trains along the way from Germany in large cities such as Minsk saves from this.

[aMaschina]

What is the 'meta' with axis tanks in the 1941/42 winter now? Send them to reserve because they break down a lot or help in defending the winter counter offensive? I heard they dont regain trucks once they have been in reserve is this true? Do they break less in urban hexes?

[Jango32]

Send them to Western Europe or Norway ahead of time and bring in the infantry divisions from there. Keep the motorized infantry divisions on the map as fire brigades.

[malyhin1517]

Send them to Western Europe or Norway ahead of time and bring in the infantry divisions from there. Keep the motorized infantry divisions on the map as fire brigades.

Quite right! I do so. In addition, I am putting on the map security divisions with 12,000 men and 45 guns. Ordinary infantry divisions lose a lot of guns when retreating in winter, and security divisions in this case are more advantageous on the map.