Countering the "all in" strategy in France

[DavidDailey]

Having been stopped attacking France by massive numbers of English and Commenwealth units rushed to the country I am perplexed about how to counter it. Believe me, I am not delaying my attack. I am in Belgium as fast as possible and even in France, but there is snow to deal with and it is necessary to spend time upgrading units. What are the timelines to be in certain spots and how is it done? Also, is an airborne invasion of England a possible counter when confronted with this?

[EarlyDoors]

Well, UK gets around 200 mpp per turn
And has the BEF which is 3 units that require upgrade
But has choices to make about how to spend that money

It can choose to buy around 1 hard unit per turn but must forgo almost everything else to do that
And each unit will take 4 turns to spawn and cross the channel

It can also ship commonwealth units from around the globe
Most of these require upgrade and shipping

1. Firstly are you using the troops you have effectively?
Are your troops under HQ and using combined arms (airforce)
They should be able to win any fight they choose.

2. If UK is reinforcing from England, can you interdict supply or threaten a vacated England? Early Sealion - really you need paradrop and/or additional Amphibious level

3. If Commonwealth troops are coming from around the globe can you interdict their passage or threaten where they no longer are (with Italians?)

Once you master how to win each contact, the UK will be vulnerable to Sealion and advance on Cairo after it has overcommitted to France
Its National Morale will be lower and will take a long time to recover.


Timings?

I'm currently taking a beating from Bavre who delayed attack on France until Spring 1940. Paris held until August 1940
but he managed to take it with no losses and now has super experienced units
so it can be achieved in historical timelines

If you go early, you need to attack Belgium turn 3 or 4. Holland can wait / or not - depends on your priority

[Bavre]

...
Timings?

I'm currently taking a beating from Bavre who delayed attack on France until Spring 1940. Paris held until August 1940
but he managed to take it with no losses and now has super experienced units
so it can be achieved in historical timelines

If you go early, you need to attack Belgium turn 3 or 4. Holland can wait / or not - depends on your priority
...

My priorities were a bit "special" on this one, because of my larger plan. As I did nothing in Africa and went all in on Barbarossa, I simply had not much time pressure in France and went for max xp, min losses.

If you're falling back too much in France, I'd advise to do something similar: skip Africa and go straight for uncle Joe with everything you have.

Generally as Allies, both here and in WiE, I refrain from doing all in France. You're just so 100% outclassed there, that it always felt like you're just converting GB MPP to German XP vs a strong opponent. This usually left the Reich inconvenienced, but the Empire crippled.

PS: Surrender! Both you and your Stalin

[EarlyDoors]

Stalin is undisturbable in his Dacha

stalin.jpeg (8.82 KiB) Viewed 1443 times

[LoneRunner]

I like your answers Early and Bavre.

When playing the Axis, I look forward to a France "All in" strategy by the Allies. The more units UK throws into France the more Allied units I can destroy before taking on Russia. UK has limited MPPs at the beginning of the war. Can spend defending France, conducting research, preparing for war in Africa, preparing to protect Russian convoys, or attacking Japan. Can't do all of em. Of the choices, my preference as Axis would be for UK to spend MPPs defending France.

Never understood why many players are in such a dang rush to conquer France. Sure, you'll get France's MPPs a couple months early but most times the Axis player incurs heavy losses doing so. So unless the Axis has plans to use an extra couple months provided by an early conquest of France, like invading Spain, Sealion, refusing Vichy, a quick conquest of France really doesn't affect the overall war.

[petedalby]

Lots of good advice thus far.

My personal timetable - is T2 Poland. T3 Luxembourg. T4 Belgium. T5 start attacking France. Leave Holland until later.

The essential upgrades (imo) are your Tanks to L1 Tanks & AA, your Armies to Inf 1, Fighters to L1 & all bombers to GAW 1. All of that should be achievable with the timetable above.

If you are adding mobility my advice would be don't do it - it's too expensive. And your Corps don't really need any upgrades since the heavy lifting will be done by your Armies, Tanks & airforce. I think both Paras arrive at L1 Inf + AA so no upgrades required there either.

I find Sealion to be risky particularly with the mobilisation penalties which accelerate the US & USSR. But if the Allies are all in in France there can't be much left in NA or EA.

[Bavre]

As I had time vs EarlyDoors and wanted to keep mobilization low, I found the following useful:
Declare war vs Dutch and kill them. Next turn (like in WiE) Belgium declares war on you, so no agrro. You have to go the long way and the Allies have one turn to prepare the Belgian defences, but you economically get the most out of the low countries for the least mobilization. I kind of felt this makes something very easy a bit more difficult, while making something difficult later on easier.

Oh and yeah, I hope it does not sound to impolite, but I always somehow felt that a true 100% all in France was more of a flex vs new players rather than a sound strategy vs opponents of the same level.

[ThunderLizard11]

As I had time vs EarlyDoors and wanted to keep mobilization low, I found the following useful:
Declare war vs Dutch and kill them. Next turn (like in WiE) Belgium declares war on you, so no agrro. You have to go the long way and the Allies have one turn to prepare the Belgian defences, but you economically get the most out of the low countries for the least mobilization. I kind of felt this makes something very easy a bit more difficult, while making something difficult later on easier.

Oh and yeah, I hope it does not sound to impolite, but I always somehow felt that a true 100% all in France was more of a flex vs new players rather than a sound strategy vs opponents of the same level.

Haven't seen most players DOW Netherlands until after France surrenders. Only had one player successfully pull off a Sea Lion - a few have tried but floundered and wound up with weak Barbarossa.

[Bavre]

In this case I only did it (vs EarlyDoors), because I went straight for Barbarossa afterwards and therefore had no hurry in France. Basically I traded time I did not need and maybe a bit stiffer resistence for less mobilization as I got both Belgium and the Dutch for the price of one DOW.

[Zuxius]

Having been stopped attacking France by massive numbers of English and Common Wealth units rushed to the country I am perplexed about how to counter it. Believe me, I am not delaying my attack.

David, this is a terrifying strategy and given what I know, I'm concerned myself on how to counter it. Believe me, I think I've perfected this strategy and I wouldn't want to go against it.

A few things to identify in measuring the possibility of an ALL-IN:
- If England had the Viceroy Declare War in India, you are definitely looking at a prerequisite for an ALL-IN. Unfortunately, almost every player does this but there are some that prefer a firmer India if things go south in the Pacific.
- If your opponent is throwing English on the front line in France and you spot more British troops than just the handful given by the British DE, you might be looking at an ALL-IN. It's a very strong leaning, but the goal might be to just drag things further out.
- If the combined fleet of France and England come with everything they got to wipe out your Italian Fleet, you are definitely looking at an ALL-IN.
- If you see Common Wealth and WDF forces in France, you are definitely looking at an ALL-IN.

Some more key indicators:
- British constantly leading the attacks and moving in to shield the French, preventing French losses at every turn.
- French units moving in for most of the killing blows to Italian and German units. This raises French Morale significantly (since they have a smaller pool that was designed to fail) and is a primary driver in keeping them going. The French love finishing off Italian battleships. The morale boost lifts them quite rapidly, as well as losses lower their National Morale just as fast.

I am in Belgium as fast as possible and even in France, but there is snow to deal with and it is necessary to spend time upgrading units.

I highly suggest you look at this video that was recommended to me by the OCB. The idea is to get Poland in one turn! I can't think of a better counter to the ALL-IN than narrowing the time the allies have in loading France. Being a turn sooner to attack France is actually pretty jarring.

Here's an inelegant way to see how its done from the Axis P.OV. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFAdVkOVE48&t=449s
Here's what it looks like from the Allied P.O.V. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVod5srz0EU&t=1516s

The upgrading of units in the research department is for future fights but not likely to change what happens in the coming summer. Buy as many tanks as you can first but also consider the third airborne (see below), then research. Cut research to rockets and subs to free up needed points and get your units ready for the fight ASAP.

What are the timelines to be in certain spots and how is it done?

The game has variable weather and this makes it dicey to declare time tables. You want Netherlands, Belgium and Lux in your pocket by Late Winter '39/Early Spring '40. The weather can decline that possibility, but having an extra turn given your "one turn Poland take" will give you more chances to act if fairer weather returns.

Also, is an airborne invasion of England a possible counter when confronted with this?

I will address this question carefully and the answer is absolutely, no! I do not think invading England will help your dilemma.
A few reasons:
- the biggest first, England has completely foregone its tech tree. They're committed to just building units and replacing the ones they've lost in France. This means that every 1-3 turns London and the other two ports cities in southern England will most likely have troops there, destined for France. Most likely one Army and two Corps. These forces will clobber you.
- you've just decreased the USA and USSR's time table to enter the fight. This is a dreadful predicament, as your invasion of Russia will most likely turn completely around to a summer invasion of Poland by the USSR. There is also ramifications for the Japanese.
- You've just guaranteed you won't take France anytime soon. If this strat is played as well as it could then you should be having a hell of a time keeping units together at full strength, especially your Luftwaffe. The Allies are keen to have their air force at full strength: to then get the opportunity to repair their bombers and bust your tanks. Every unit and plane you take out of the conflict for France allows the French time to repair. You don't want that.
- There'll be a LOT of home guard garrisons that'll seem to be made of granite, standing guard at every step of the way. Supply issues are also terrible in England and the weather with the R.A.F. will be ever vigilant. If its just a paratroop there for a london grap than I guess you could say, "Mission Accomplished" but you'll later suffer the nagging desire to put one more troop into England and thus perpetuating a side show that doesn't get you France.
- And even if you do take London, the Capital just moves north a ways. You're still screwed in France.

What follows are some true counters. Some you just heard above with other posters and others I noticed are absent:
- The sinking of the Italian fleet is perhaps a signature move in taming the Mediterranean for this strat. There are some specific Common Wealth units coming to France's aid and the Italian Fleet is a possible problem for those late units getting there. Wiping the Italian fleet out solves that problem once and for all and presents some big opportunities for France to raise their National Morale. England is very dense with National Morale and it takes a lot of punishment to move it down, but France is very glassey. In order for it to defeat the Germans, their Morale has to survive numerous hits that are HUGE. They need victories in the form of sunken Italian ships (if possible) to raise their morale just enough to weather the scripted Morale hits and their battlefield losses. In this ALL-IN Mediterranean strat, the Italian Fleet is certainly doomed but its preferable that you "lose" your fleet to British ships, not French ones. Key thing: stay in port. Keep your German Fighters close to where the British Carriers are likely to attack and make them suffer. Bleed those British Carriers for every plane you can and never let a French ship kill a single Italian one.
- At sea you will need to get your German Fleet out sometime near or before Italian entry into the war. Your subs are the only way you can offset an ALL-IN strat passively. It goes without saying that all dollars taken away from England has a cascade effect. Therefore, the German cruiser in South Africa should be employed immediately to bar South Africa's port. You must also put the other two ships in the N. Atlantic right to use and hurt those British. Money taken away from the English early means less money for this strat as a net total. But be wary you are the mouse and the allied player will deal with this threat up to Spring 1940 with ease. Afterwards, if the British and French go ALL-IN to the Med, your German Fleet will then have the opportunity to punish England economically while they're busy wiping out the Italian Navy. The British have to bring a sizable number of destroyers to the Mediterranean in order to deal with the two Italian Subs (they are highest on the kill list). This means your German Capital ships will easily smash any lone destroyers during that 1940 Summer.
- The allied ALL-IN strat doesn't account for Naval losses. The British Fleet and their Naval Air Forces cannot be replaced without taking away from France, so any damage to their units at sea will most likely remain so until France falls. The sinking of a French ship is a big win, but only if you can absolutely get away with it without giving the French their own victory of sinking one of yours, a tit-for-tat situation. The ALL-IN player in France may not go after the Italian Fleet (applying their carriers against land in France), but this most likely means they'll move their sea lanes and receive reduced income. It also means that you can be more aggressive in Africa.
- If they do go after the Italian fleet and the matter is settled, get your German navy to safety. Your U-boats will most likely be running dry anyhow, but at least you'll have Norway by then. If you've dealt with whatever Destroyers came your way while the British Fleet is sinking Italians, put your German capital ships on Raid. Again, economic damage to England is the only way to passively hurt this strat and give your land forces an edge. I wouldn't lose my German Navy over it because the French are keen to get Morale boosts from sinking them.
- France is the battlefield and you don't win it by prioritizing British units over French ones. An ALL-IN player knows that French losses doom the entire enterprise. I really don't understand the advice given by a certain poster as to killing British as a priority. The British are the ones that can take such losses throughout the entire conflict without it significantly effecting their unit morale. They are a pillar and an obstacle but they aren't where your Germans will get traction. Killing French must be your priority for two reasons: the French can't reinforce their reduced units easily and their National Morale being lowered effects the damage they deal and the amount of damage they take. This isn't true in the case of the British. In fact, British losses are going through a constant recycling period of using the same units over and over as this ALL-IN drags on. Once the investment is put in (the British purchased a new Army and some 4-5 Corps), they'll be building those units again and again throughout the entire conflict at half price with twice the speed. That is the trick to this ALL-IN pony. The British can withstand and will take terrible losses (which minutly effects their National Morale) but they'll persist, waiting for opportunities to inflict grevious damage on your Wehrmacht, just so a French unit can get in there and slap a German for a Morale Boost (when it pops). This strat is all about the British fighting for the French with the French taking credit for it. Ruthlessly kill all French units first, whenever you get the chance.
- Minimize your losses in France. It's easy to say but very hard to do. The worst thing you can do is leave your tanks in open terrain. The British Strategic Bomber attacks your tank directly when it's not in a city. Your German tanks are also high priority targets and will be decimated at every turn if its within the allies capability to do so. Be wary of the time and when the DE happens where the US fulfills aircraft orders for France. I always say yes to allowing that order to be fulfilled. It takes work to get those planes up into France and at full strength but the British got it covered.
- Your Italians are probably shut out if the ALL-IN Navy landed on your head but that doesn't mean you can't apply dreadful pressure in North Africa if you moved your HQ, Armies and tanks there in advance. I think a lot of players emphasize on Ethiopia but really, the ALL-IN strat fears a more direct approach from Libya into Egypt. The British really can't be bothered with much other than applying excruciating pressure in France (which is all the marbles). So, aside from the usual muscle to keep up appearences in Southern France, you may find the British a bit more under-manned in Egypt than usual. The turmoil caused by your sluggish advance from Tobruk will have dividends in the Iraq coup and this will help some, in reducing the British money, but seeing "just Italians" over running Cairo will be very hard for the British to stomach. Some players think this game is about balances which must be maintained in all theatres (as if doing so is about keeping all your opportunities open for later stages of the game) but that isn't true with this ALL-IN strat. If the Allies win the battle for France, the game is over. End of story. So, advance your Italians in North Africa with confidence and don't be disappointed when you come up against significant resistance. That resistance isn't in France and that is already a win. But most likely the Western Defense Force is out to lunch in France and your Italian Medium Bomber will probably be enough to march through those Freebie British units tasked in defending Egypt. Expect your Italians to have a greater edge against British ones because there will be a LOT of dead British Troops in France and they won't be upgrading their troops beyond the first one they got for free when the game began. Get your Italian tank down there too before the Allies have too many ships clogging the sea lanes. Commiting to Ethiopia before an ALL-IN is appraised will most likely lead to regrets of what you could've done.
- Your Airborne troops are not to be wasted on a melodramtic attacks behind the maginot line. Its ok to use your Airborne when you're seeing the French lines crumble but they are not, by any means, a way to lower French Morale unless you're certain they'll link up with your main force. There is no better past time for the French, than surrounding an airborne unit near the Maginot line and waiting for them to become zero supply. The French then get the National Morale points and this reward exceeds the loss of whatever interior city that was taken. You have to be really winning to apply Airborne near the front lines. However, the far rear lines are a different story. I highly suggest getting the third Airborne if you don't know the trick. You purchase the one available Airborne right after Poland falls and then you get the other two from the qeue. This nets you three airborne (though if you lose one, you'll never be able to buy the third again for the rest of the game). Which brings me to the point: an airborne attack using the three in Southern France (via Italy) will create an unnerving and unbalancing situation. Such an attack would require the Luftwaffe to throw down all it has up north so the English fighters are exhausted before these units deploy. But once they've landed in Southern France, they could just roam and take cities or camp out until the supply raises from where they're holding up. This brings some interesting posibilities like attacking HQs at the rear or linking up with Italian Forces to the East. Let's be clear, airborne units are shock and awe units that are "siege breakers," and when it comes to softening enemy units readiness and morale, their ability to make possible what was once impossible might give your Italians the edge needed to break out. But, if the Allies so wish it, they could destroy all three with some effort. The question is: at what cost? This particular counter strat should be applied when you've delivered significant losses to the British, specifically. They'd most likely be the police force that'd have to come clean up this mess. And naturally, the British forces applied against your airborne would be absent elsewhere.

Final thoughts:
French National Morale is the only consideration that this strat makes, in whatever it does. If you can get that reduced by any means, I encourage it. The damage and destruction of French units with the loss of French cities is the deciding factor. It was always just that. France is a mini-game unto itself but the longer you play it, the more dire the consequences become in the greater picture. If you haven't seen a major breakthru with them giving up massive territory by '40 summer's end, you've lost. The winter won't offer anything promising but it will give the allies better defense against you. The summer of '41 comes too fast and if you can finish the job at that time, it won't matter anyway because Stalin will begin his offensive by Aug-Sep '41 without you.

The most difficult thing about all this is staying cohesive with such a tiny budget to replace losses. The Germans just have to use those early successes (with its profits) to keep the momentum up and the replacements coming. The moment you have to wait for "next turn" to repair badly damaged tanks is when the time just runs away from you. It's very subtle but its sliding away. Your planes are looking shabby at 7's. Your men are looking worn at 6-8's and somehow you just don't have enough to keep them all up. Destroyed a lot of English units but they just seem to keep slipping in...

[DavidDailey]

Since a counter to this strategy is destroying French units as a priority to lower their national morale should that take precedence even if the UK is literally piling up units in front of Paris? 2. Would concentrating on destroying Maginot Line units reduce French morale enough to maybe produce a French surrender when Paris is captured? In other words, is it possible to guarantee in some way a French surrender if Paris is captured? 3. Is there someway to capture Marseille and prevent it from being a port of entry for commonwealth units? Is it worthwhile to do so to slow their entrance into France or does that not make much of a difference? 4. Would placing the entire Luftwaffe in northern Italy and trying to sink French warships venturing into the Adriatic and Tyhrennian seas to sink the Italians be a worthwhile strategy to reduce French morale? 5. Will building Italian and German AA units and placing next to Italian ports keep the Italian ships alive? 6. Will building German AA units and placing them next to German land units blunt the effect of Allied air attacks enough to make it worth the investment?

[Zuxius]

Since a counter to this strategy is destroying French units as a priority to lower their national morale should that take precedence even if the UK is literally piling up units in front of Paris?

The thing about the British is that they sometimes have such a presence that they have to be reduced in order to have a showing of French Units. I think the priority should be to destroy French Units over English when it is available. The strategy of the "ALL-IN" player will be to hope you go for English first. I've purposely put Corps and Armies up against German Panzers without HQ support, hoping to entice the player to go for them and overlook a French Army that is a little harder to kill. Naturally, the British troop was dead in two hits. Tragic, but the French were better for it. If its 50:50 french or british, hit the french and always kill the unit. The English will build up to quite a force but they can never defend all of France without the French, thinning and holes appear.

2. Would concentrating on destroying Maginot Line units reduce French morale enough to maybe produce a French surrender when Paris is captured? In other words, is it possible to guarantee in some way a French surrender if Paris is captured?

Fighting on the Maginot line doesn't yield the traction you need to get this done by summer's end. For sure it is a safer way to widdle them down but it won't give you a summer victory or perhaps even a fall. Even with a hole after a massive hit, the units are very reluctant to move into the hex. Yes, you do get to kill a Frenchman but one a summer turn without much gain of territory won't get the results. In fact, advances on Paris have bigger morale consequences than any losses the French suffer, as you trigger them.

3. Is there someway to capture Marseille and prevent it from being a port of entry for commonwealth units? Is it worthwhile to do so to slow their entrance into France or does that not make much of a difference?

Nearly impossible to accomplish. Amphibious Italians or Germans at that stage of the game is nearly unproductive or counterproductive. Their British and French Navies will be out for them so you'll have to safeguard their landing. You could do the airborne strat as mentioned above but in order to take Marseille you'd need to... I'll just say that it would require a retasking of some elements of your Luftwaffe to soften it up and even then you would put them offline in the summer offensive to either "operate or fly for a while." Your planes and resources for just keeping the momentum going is key to delivering consistent losses against the enemy. The actual delivery of all but one of the Commonwealth happens before or on the actual turn Italy joins the axis. I don't think taking Marseille prevents the CommonWealth from arriving because the vast majority of the force is already there.

4. Would placing the entire Luftwaffe in northern Italy and trying to sink French warships venturing into the Adriatic and Tyhrennian seas to sink the Italians be a worthwhile strategy to reduce French morale?

That would be a no. Again, your Luftwaffe is a critical component to killing French units, even the ones more dug in that are harder to get. Your medium bombers are the Pre-Panzer tenderizers. If anything, I might recommend adding the Italian medium bomber into the mix up North. In my "ALL-IN" strats, I guard the French ships like gold and only bring them in when I think they can lose nothing and finish off a "1" point Italian Battleship, and then they sail back out into open sea.

5. Will building Italian and German AA units and placing next to Italian ports keep the Italian ships alive?

They'll protect whatever space that is adjacent to them. I don't believe their effectiveness at Level 1 will equal the German's Level 1-2 fighters. They deliver damage but once the planes suffer that AA, the damage they deliver will still be devastating. That is why I prefer German fighters, because they have a tendency to deliver more damage which will reduce the dreadful damage to horrendous. I think the AA is a good tool to minimize your own fighter losses since it'll fire first, preserving the fighter's option to defend on a later attack, after it's used up its attack. My thought is, you want to punish those carrier bombers and reduce them as much as possible before they drop their payload. I don't believe a hastily placed German AA is better than the German Fighters. The fighters will be more expensive to replace but they deal more damage. I use my British Carriers to the last. When I'm done, they are all "2"s and "3"s with one possibly being replaced to an "8" (very costly but you have to, to finish the job). I also bring in all my subs, including the one that typically pesters the Norway supply convoys. They kill very well the ships in ports and there's no AA or Fighter that can stop that.

6. Will building German AA units and placing them next to German land units blunt the effect of Allied air attacks enough to make it worth the investment?

The allied air attacks are very surgical. They have to wait for a German to slip up, suffer horrendous casualties (by some fluke), over extend beyond the rest of the force or have no support from a German HQ. And typically, it has to be a combination of all these things to make it worthwhile. The Allies can try to make things happen against units at "8" or "9" but typically it's too forced. The british are all about, in that summer '40, taking a phenomenal amount of damage and turning the other cheek. They concede ground and quietly build up their planes and bombers and wait. Somehow, and there is no telling why, a German Panzer that was left behind at an "8" or ""7" is skipped for replacements because there is a British Army with "3" or "4" left. The German, instead of hitting the replacement button, decides to charge on in and... surprise! The tank is at a "5" and turns gray or can't get off the frontline. After that shallow moment, the British and French throw in all they got. British army and French Armies hit the thing with bombers of all types and it pops. Could you have put an AA gun there in hindsight? I doubt it. Everything around that tank would already be gray before a tank was brought in afar to finish the job. It get's tight in there and juggling an AA gun instead of the units you need to finish off an Allied unit would be difficult. Perhaps if a "hole" is left near the rear the tank might retreat to there, but typically it is so dense with Germans waiting for their chance to fight or punched for replacements that there is no where to go.