Russian at start fuel levels

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DesertedFox
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Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DesertedFox »

I did a quick look around the editor at the Russian armored and mech units at the start.

I saw fuel levels anywhere from 97 to 157%, mostly they were over 100%.

I can only give two examples below from Glantz but from my poor memory banks in past readings I believe the mobile units

had quite low levels of fuel available from the very start which caused many issues with them being able to move very far.

I think the at-start fuel levels for the Russians are too generous and maybe need a look into.
Clash of Titans. Glantz

Meanwhile, the VVS commander in Leningrad, Major General Aleksandr A. Novikov, got permission to strike against German 5th Air Fleet, which had relocated to Finnish airfields to harass the northern defenders. On 25 June, Novikov launched 263 bombers and 224 fighters against the startled Germans, but poor intelligence limited the effect of this aerial counterattack.9 Such Soviet successes were fleeting. In a matter of days, Fourth Panzer Group’s XXXXI Motorized Corps bypassed the tank divisions of 3rd and 12th Mechanized Corps, whose attempted counterstrokes were defeated by the lack of coordination, fuel, and ammunition.

Not all units received the order to withdraw, and most were unable to break contact. Pavlov’s front had already lost much of its fuel and motor transportation, so the troops withdrew on foot under constant German air attack.
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DesertedFox
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DesertedFox »

Further to the above.

These mobile units generally have approximately 50% supply and mostly well over 100% fuel. I think if the fuel roughly matched the supply it might be more accurate.

These extracts from

Stalin’s Folly the Tragic First Ten Days of WW2 on the Eastern Front. Constantine Pleshakov.
June 22nd

by the end of the day Riabyshev's men were to relocate to the woods west of Sambor. Sambor lay very close to the border, which meant that they would soon be in contact with German tanks. No evacuation of civilians had been ordered, so the officers were forced to leave their families in the compound, which was now blazing but only a few hours earlier had been a secure base and a comfortable home. The 50-mile march to Sambor proved stressful. The corps, with 30,000 men and an awkward assortment of 932 tanks, proceeded slowly. Only 169 of the eight kinds of tanks were the new KVs and T-34s. The older tanks couldn't go more than 300 miles without needing repairs, and 197 of them already had serious mechanical problems. Most of the tanks used gasoline — three different kinds of gasoline — but 171 had to have diesel fuel.

June 23rd.

The adversaries crawled toward each other, spitting fire. The Germans hadn't expected any resistance at all, so, surprised, they withdrew a few miles, unwilling to take unnecessary losses, and called in the air force. With a terrifying screech, the U-88 bombers dived at the Thirtieth almost vertically, delivered their load, and climbed back into the sky with a victorious roar. No Red air force fighters were there to stop them. Soon the battlefield was studded with the carcasses of Soviet tanks. Like torches, they flared up one after another. The Thirtieth didn't
stand a chance. After the Luftwaffe assault, Guderians tanks moved into position and smashed the division, kicking its remnants back to the east. The division lost 60 tanks out of 120. Another panzer division, the Twenty-second, had just 40 tanks left, and its commander, Major General Puganov, had been killed. Guderians progress had been checked for a few hours, but the Soviets had paid too heavy a price. Korobkov looked gloomy and exhausted. When he was told that by some miracle communications with Pavlov had been restored, he immediately contacted him. He asked Pavlov to send planes, fuel, and ammunition. Both knew that it was an unrealistic request, since the air force had been destroyed and the fuel and ammunition annihilated, but Korobkov felt obliged to ask, and Pavlov felt compelled to promise.

June 27-28th

The night before, Zhukov had cabled an order consisting of five points, each demanding immediate action. The first instructed Pavlov, five days after the start of hostilities, to get in touch with all the front's units. Second, he was to be sure not to abandon tanks and artillery pieces on the battlefield because they had run out of fuel; if necessary, he should airlift extra fuel to the troops.
The Tenth Army was silent in the pocket at Belostok, and the Third remained hopelessly dispersed and impossible to track. An airlift to send extra fuel to the front line was an absurd notion, since most of the Western Front air force had been destroyed in the first hours of war.

June 28th

It would be wrong to say that the directives had no impact at all; directives #2 and #3, ordering forceful counterstrikes, did eventually thrust hundreds of thousands into battle. However, the result was the opposite of what Stalin, Timoshenko, and Zhukov had hoped to achieve. The troops perished, yielding more territory and leaving the hinterland unprotected. It couldn't have been otherwise, as the basic cycle of war — battle report, high command decision, implementation of the decision — had been completely disrupted. Normally it took just a few hours for all the communications to go through; in principle, with radio and telephone, it was feasible to
squeeze the whole cycle into an hour or so. In reality the process often took days. Granted, Stalin expected too much from his troops, thinking that discipline and purge could substitute for ammunition and fuel.
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DarkHorse2 »

In general, I have concerns about how the initial state of Soviet forces are modeled in the game data at the start of Barbarossa.

But, when playing, the Soviet forces are quickly overwhelmed, never-the-less.

So, I tend to want to believe that this initial lack of supply is modeled via poor initial moral / experience?

That is, until I get my nose bloodied by an ahistorical turn2 or turn3 Soviet counter-attack.
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DesertedFox
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DesertedFox »

DarkHorse2 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:38 pm I
So, I tend to want to believe that this initial lack of supply is modeled via poor initial moral / experience?
My only real concern is say the initial 2 to 3 weeks where the Russian mobile forces tend imho to be a little too mobile due

to a number of factors, confusion, lack of communication, lack of any reliable intel, and unrealistic orders some of which

are redundant when they were issued, etc which amongst other things would limit the mobility of these forces due to the

availability of suitable fuel. Currently, the Russians are able to launch attacks in this time frame with 3 or 4 armored divs

simultaneously on a single hex. I just don't think they had that kind of logistical "fuel" support that early in a localized

area.
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DarkHorse2 »

DesertedFox wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:00 pm
My only real concern is say the initial 2 to 3 weeks where the Russian mobile forces tend imho to be a little too mobile due

to a number of factors, confusion, lack of communication, lack of any reliable intel, and unrealistic orders some of which

are redundant when they were issued, etc which amongst other things would limit the mobility of these forces due to the

availability of suitable fuel. Currently, the Russians are able to launch attacks in this time frame with 3 or 4 armored divs

simultaneously on a single hex. I just don't think they had that kind of logistical "fuel" support that early in a localized

area.
You are probably correct on all of the above. This would be more of a concern in PvP than against the AI.

I do feel that a veteran Soviet player could make much better use of the Soviet mobile forces during that time period. Most likely, to ahistorical results when compared to historical record:
To simplify command and control of the northern pincer Southwest Front placed the 9th and 19th Mechanized Corps under the 5th Army. Their mission was to assault von Mackensen’s left at Rovno. Although ordered by Stavka, the attacks lacked synchronization and the 13th Panzer defeated each portion in detail. The 1st Antitank Brigade halted the 14th Panzer again, this time near Klevan.

The corresponding Soviet attack on the south flank near Dubno began poorly when the Luftwaffe bombed the 15th Mechanized headquarters, wounding Karpezo. Soon it and the 8th Mechanized were holding their own against the 11th and 16th Panzer Divisions. The 8th, “reduced [by losses] to a manageable size” according to Rokossovsky, even worked its way behind the two panzer formations. Northern and southern pincers stood barely 6 miles apart with the 16th Panzer holding a division-sized Igel in-between. But initial gains abruptly fell afoul of poor Soviet communications and mutual support. The 75th Infantry and 16th Panzer Divisions soon restored the German situation with Luftwaffe help. Kirponos heard only the bad news from the northern sector so called off his offensive. Stavka, trying to manage the counterattacks from Moscow, had even less visibility on the situation. Together they missed a golden opportunity to give von Rundstedt a stinging reverse.

Kirponos ordered his remnants to make one last attack on June 30, but lacked sufficient strength. Political Commissar N.N. Vashugin, overruling the commander, personally led the 8th Mechanized Corps’ tank division directly into a swamp, losing all its tanks. Vashugin promptly committed suicide.
https://erenow.net/ww/operation-barbaro ... ssia/6.php
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ncc1701e
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by ncc1701e »

This is surely helping to break the early pockets for the Soviets and have Barbarossa derailed too early.
Good point, thanks. Hope it will be looked at.
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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
ShaggyHiK
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by ShaggyHiK »

And I will criticize this remark, because the Soviet Panzer and Mechanized divisions could make an 800 km march. Which suggests that there was enough fuel for at least 5 refuelings and it was not so much a lack of fuel as a current one, but precisely its illiterate use and disruption of communications by German aviation and the immediate difficulties of its delivery. They burned the fuel supply vehicle, we need to send a new one, but for now we are standing, but for now we are standing, the order to withdraw and it must be executed.
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by ShaggyHiK »

In addition, problems with a lack of fuel are a purely German problem, there might not have been enough fuel on the ground or a specific type of fuel in the USSR, but the main type of tank losses at that time were losses from breakdowns.

In the battle of Dubno-Brody, almost 50% of the materiel was lost on the marches from breakdowns, and the marches were no less than 500 km.
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DesertedFox
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DesertedFox »

ShaggyHiK wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:49 am In addition, problems with a lack of fuel are a purely German problem, there might not have been enough fuel on the ground or a specific type of fuel in the USSR, but the main type of tank losses at that time were losses from breakdowns.

In the battle of Dubno-Brody, almost 50% of the materiel was lost on the marches from breakdowns, and the marches were no less than 500 km.
Hi Shaggy,

I'll respond most likely tomorrow as there are some big problems with Slitherine and Matrix servers for uploading game saves and just refreshing a forum page at present.
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by ncc1701e »

After receiving orders to attack and lacking fuel or ammunition, the crews responded by destroying their vehicles and retreating. Hundreds of tanks were lost in this way. Battle of Brody.

I think the point is to lower the fuel level a little not to empty them.
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DesertedFox
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Re: Russian at start fuel levels

Post by DesertedFox »

Okay, so I had the time to investigate this a little deeper and I would say the devs have it correct as it stands.

Doing a hot seat game without any activity, moves, attacks etc the Russian mobile divs actually start turn 1 on the map with quite reduced fuel levels from what the editor says.

I am guessing this is from the logistics phase taking away supplies/fuel for subsistence and adding any from passed supply checks.

The divs historically taking part in the Brody counterattacks have varying degrees of movement, a few would be able to conduct a regular but most would be restricted to a hasty attack only. This is mostly due to the number of vehicles they have against their full toe. Thus a full panzer div would have no difficulty defeating any counterattack.

Breaking a div down however might be touch and go. Then you have to take into account that the Russians won't have enough movement points to get out of reach of encirclement in turn 2.
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