The China problem

WarPlan Pacific is an operational level wargame which covers all the nations at war in the Pacific theatre from December 1941 to 1945 on a massive game scale.

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generalfdog
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The China problem

Post by generalfdog »

Much like in history unless you get lucky or put a huge amount of effort in to it China seems like a hopeless quagmire with not much to gain. Changsha is about all you can reasonably hope to gain, and the more you fight them the better they get! I am wondering if pulling back to the areas you already have like Shanghai , Canton, and Peking would be wise and use those freed up troops to defend the pacific, attack India, Australia or even USSR. Trying it in one game we shall see.
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stjeand
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Re: The China problem

Post by stjeand »

From the Axis side China is supposed to be just that...a grind that they just can not support...BUT that does not appear to be the case.
Most strong land players can crack China and push them back pretty far. How far? Well that depends on effort.

The Japanese don't need armies in anywhere but Burma and China at least until about 43...then there are large enough US forces that they might think about shipping some to the Solomons area to prevent US invasions.

So there is no reason to do anything with them but hammer the Chinese.

A few players heavily focus on China...I think it is a must as it forces the Allies players hand to either invade places early that they do not want to yet or forces them to take risks that they would normally not.

Once the Axis have Changsha they can just smash units down the rail line.
And if they use their paratrooper(s), if you build one twice the fun, they can perform some strategic rail line supply cuts which can be devastating to the Chinese army.
Japanese supply as they reach Chengtu sucks...and it is very unlikely that the Japanese can ever wipe out the Chinese unless the Allied play makes some horrible mistakes.

Sadly that there are only 2 cities that the Japanese can take that give them resources in return, Changsha and Lanchow so taking the others only keep points from the Chinese.

IF the Japanese can push that far though, they are able to free up a huge amount of troops to fight in Burma and all over the Pacific.
There is no reason you can not just take Changsha and dig in...but for me that will require more troops to just hold...pushing into the mountains makes it much more difficult for the Chinese to push through.
generalfdog
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Re: The China problem

Post by generalfdog »

idk China seems fairly good to me, Except vs very beginner players I have yet to have this big victory over the Chinese you talk about, it usually seems like a long slog with no hope of victory and if somehow you do win big and push them then you just run out of supply so it doesn't matter. I think you might be better as Japan to abandon most of the interior of China and just defend the cities with production value. Also if you don't fight them they don't get more experience, they are like USSR in wpe the more you fight them the better they get
YueJin
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Re: The China problem

Post by YueJin »

Personally I believe in pushing for this line in China provided you're not intending on going all in on India. As Stjeand says, there's not much else for your armies to do in 1942 and even if you don't overrun several army groups the Chinese should struggle to get onto an offensive footing until the summer of 1944. All the terrain here is behind a river line or in hills allowing divisions to defend and Kunming is a reasonable objective even in 1943 if you can't take it in '42.

Image

If you get both Changsha and Kunming, the Chinese economy is crippled, they go down to around 45pp per turn which can't sustain an attack easily. Falling back to Shanghai, Canton, Beijing seems possible but I don't see how it actually allows you to take armies out of the country as you'll need at least two in the north, one on Canton and probably two around Shanghai/Nanjing. Also, the Chinese will be fully replenished and ready to attack by the summer of '43 and will start draining your pp with attacks.
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stjeand
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Re: The China problem

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generalfdog wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:23 am idk China seems fairly good to me, Except vs very beginner players I have yet to have this big victory over the Chinese you talk about, it usually seems like a long slog with no hope of victory and if somehow you do win big and push them then you just run out of supply so it doesn't matter. I think you might be better as Japan to abandon most of the interior of China and just defend the cities with production value. Also if you don't fight them they don't get more experience, they are like USSR in wpe the more you fight them the better they get
Well in one game I am in now...I am right on the door step of Kunming and Chengtu.
Yes my opponent made a huge mistake and I cut off over half the Chinese army so got overrun but I have supply to those hexes even in winter. Bad supply but supply.

You have to just do it right to get there.
You move divisions up tight...pull back your armies to the rail lines...they get back to 90% efficiency then march back in.

Honestly I think China might be a little to easy but again it is who you play.
I have yet to be slowed down. Once Changsha falls the rail line will fall...You then have 9 supply right there and that is BAD for the Chinese. To hold the Chinese have to start garrisoning their units...it is the only way to make them stronger against attack...but then they can't be used until they are converted back so PP that they do not have.

I have spent most of my time playing WPE so know a lot to land tricks to best my attacks. With heavy air raids the Japanese can make just about any unit retreat.

I am happy to play a game against you to see if you can hold better in China. Don't even have to play all the way through but just to a point where either side get bogged down in China to the point of a stalemate. Practice is always a good thing.
I only have one competition game going and two test games to practice better starts with another player.
generalfdog
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Re: The China problem

Post by generalfdog »

That sounds fun, if you put up a game I will accept, how about password "China"
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ncc1701e
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Re: The China problem

Post by ncc1701e »

I would be interested to read an AAR of this. :)
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stjeand
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Re: The China problem

Post by stjeand »

generalfdog wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:13 am That sounds fun, if you put up a game I will accept, how about password "China"
Sure...I will start it now.
mike0me
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Re: The China problem

Post by mike0me »

I am playing the early China game which appears to act as a tutorial in version 1.100.07.0. I greatly enjoy most elements of the game and look forward to playing the full campaign.

However, lack of supply in China after the first year or so makes the game very frustrating. Partisans happily cut rails directly under a division, as well as adjacent hexes the manual says are blocked. (Which I remember working correctly in the European game.) A smaller number of partisan attacks would be helpful. The computer sets convoys to deliver supply, but sometimes omits ports even when they are garrisoned. I remain ignorant of the amount of supply available to be shipped or how the computer determines whether there is full supply or port supply to individual units.

An additional annoyance is when there is constant bad weather for over half the year. Given the length of a turn, there would surely be times when infantry could fight and aircraft could fly at less than a 50% penalty; but I understand this wouldn't happen in very heavy rain or snow. I'm uncertain of supply/weather effects on readiness to unmoving and unengaged units. Finally, I disagree that transported land units should need landing craft to disembark on a conquered port, at which there would be docks.

These frustrating elements may be errors or necessary game mechanics for the full game. Overall, I greatly enjoy the game and thank the developers for the effort they put into it.
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stjeand
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Re: The China problem

Post by stjeand »

mike0me wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:37 pm However, lack of supply in China after the first year or so makes the game very frustrating. Partisans happily cut rails directly under a division, as well as adjacent hexes the manual says are blocked. (Which I remember working correctly in the European game.) A smaller number of partisan attacks would be helpful. The computer sets convoys to deliver supply, but sometimes omits ports even when they are garrisoned. I remain ignorant of the amount of supply available to be shipped or how the computer determines whether there is full supply or port supply to individual units.

An additional annoyance is when there is constant bad weather for over half the year. Given the length of a turn, there would surely be times when infantry could fight and aircraft could fly at less than a 50% penalty; but I understand this wouldn't happen in very heavy rain or snow. I'm uncertain of supply/weather effects on readiness to unmoving and unengaged units. Finally, I disagree that transported land units should need landing craft to disembark on a conquered port, at which there would be docks.

These frustrating elements may be errors or necessary game mechanics for the full game. Overall, I greatly enjoy the game and thank the developers for the effort they put into it.
First partisans can not cut any lines under or adjacent to any unit. I suspect the rail was recently captured and has yet to repair there. Rail only repairs 1 hex at a time. Also keep in mind that no partisans appear on roads so you do not need to garrison a road line. Why? Well I can't answer that but that is the way it is.
I can make a line of divisions from the coast and keep all my units in supply 100% of the time.
You just have to figure out how to do that.
I have a game running with a screen show up...it shows how to do it. Though hopefully everyone won't copy off my paper.

Ports can only supply units up to 25 hexes away...and sometimes the closer ports supply units that you would hope ports further away would supply so you run low. Again you have to balance that and it is difficult but do able.
For example Singapore can supply units close to Rangoon but it won't. They will receive supplies first from Rangoon then Rangoon will run out of supply and Singapore will have tons left in port. I wish I could control that but that is a game mechanic that you just have to live with.

Rain and heavy rain effect combat but do not effect a units efficiency.
Snow is a 10% loss and I think Blizzard is a 20% but I could be wrong with blizzard.

Keep in mind some things are more abstract. An air unit takes a 50% hit in weather for a reason...Yes maybe there are a dozen pilots that have no issue with rain but many more would be less experienced and who know what they can see in poor weather. Yes during a 2 week period I am sure that there would be a "clear" day here or there but now you have to change the entire game. Easier to just say rain for 2 weeks.

Landing craft are needed to land in a conquered port only on the turn you capture it. Why? Well it is likely that the enemy blew up the docks and you have to repair them. Heck I would. I am sure you would....anything to slow down your enemy. But that is for just 1 turn. Not a big deal to me but when you think of it that way it makes more sense.

Just be lucky that ports can not be destroyed by the owner...that should exist in the game. The Japanese would be destroying them like crazy as the US started to invade to keep them from using them.
Two week so fix them seems pretty fair to me.
generalfdog
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Re: The China problem

Post by generalfdog »

mike0me wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:37 pm I am playing the early China game which appears to act as a tutorial in version 1.100.07.0. I greatly enjoy most elements of the game and look forward to playing the full campaign.

However, lack of supply in China after the first year or so makes the game very frustrating. Partisans happily cut rails directly under a division, as well as adjacent hexes the manual says are blocked. (Which I remember working correctly in the European game.) A smaller number of partisan attacks would be helpful. The computer sets convoys to deliver supply, but sometimes omits ports even when they are garrisoned. I remain ignorant of the amount of supply available to be shipped or how the computer determines whether there is full supply or port supply to individual units.

An additional annoyance is when there is constant bad weather for over half the year. Given the length of a turn, there would surely be times when infantry could fight and aircraft could fly at less than a 50% penalty; but I understand this wouldn't happen in very heavy rain or snow. I'm uncertain of supply/weather effects on readiness to unmoving and unengaged units. Finally, I disagree that transported land units should need landing craft to disembark on a conquered port, at which there would be docks.

These frustrating elements may be errors or necessary game mechanics for the full game. Overall, I greatly enjoy the game and thank the developers for the effort they put into it.
I have found the China 37 scenario to be quit frustrating as Japan I think it is a little too hard almost impossible to reach historical objectives, In my opinion it wasn't scaled right, but I was told I am wrong. the scenarios aren't tested retested and tweaked the way the main game is . play the full campaign it plays very nice. or If you want a scenario the Salomon's scenario is pretty good
ThunderLizard11
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Re: The China problem

Post by ThunderLizard11 »

Still would like to see more info in how best to push China back as Japan. Any AAR or guides out there or a Youtube?
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ncc1701e
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Re: The China problem

Post by ncc1701e »

If Japanese player is putting all its armies and land based planes in China, China is crushed. Performing Ground Strike to lower the effectiveness of the Chinese armies. China can be either too easy or too hard. The problem is the lack of air cover for China. And, the lack of land reserves, one or two forming armies for China would be welcomed against a strong Japanese player.
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Re: The China problem

Post by ThunderLizard11 »

ncc1701e wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:52 pm If Japanese player is putting all its armies and land based planes in China, China is crushed. Performing Ground Strike to lower the effectiveness of the Chinese armies. China can be either too easy or too hard. The problem is the lack of air cover for China. And, the lack of land reserves, one or two forming armies for China would be welcomed against a strong Japanese player.
My question is on specifics about attacking China
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Re: The China problem

Post by ncc1701e »

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:22 pm My question is on specifics about attacking China
In the North, you need to advance. Needless to attack, just advance to threaten the supply lines of the Chinese land units. They will be forced to fallback to avoid encirclement. Then your main goal is to bring your Japanese airborne unit and to do an air drop directly on Lanchow if it is unoccupied. If so, Communist China will surrender. This is a little gamey yes but it works. If Lanchow has an unit inside, don't advance because you are at the limit of your supply net.
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Re: The China problem

Post by ncc1701e »

In the South, your first goal is to take Changsha and very important the railroad from Hong Kong to Changsha for your supply net. Then, you need to push to take the remaining railroad from Changsha to Kweiyang. At this stage, you can see if Kunming can be taken or Chungking if Communist China is no more.
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stjeand
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Re: The China problem

Post by stjeand »

As the Japanese I have no issues in China...in fact China may be to easy overall.
Just pour armies in and your airforce...They can't hold all the places you can attack...

As ncc said...Changsha and the rail line...that will cripple the Chinese...at this point the Japanese can pull back armies and put them on islands...and defend with either divisions or half armies...or mix of those which is recommended.

Lack of ZOC for Japan is a huge pain.
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Re: The China problem

Post by ThunderLizard11 »

stjeand wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:46 pm As the Japanese I have no issues in China...in fact China may be to easy overall.
Just pour armies in and your airforce...They can't hold all the places you can attack...

As ncc said...Changsha and the rail line...that will cripple the Chinese...at this point the Japanese can pull back armies and put them on islands...and defend with either divisions or half armies...or mix of those which is recommended.

Lack of ZOC for Japan is a huge pain.
Yeah that worked against AI. Just kept pounding them with close air support and eventually got them to fall back. Does this work for PBEM as well?
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stjeand
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Re: The China problem

Post by stjeand »

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:55 am Yeah that worked against AI. Just kept pounding them with close air support and eventually got them to fall back. Does this work for PBEM as well?
It has for me...but PBEM players will cut supply with a suicide unit and do other things that the AI won't so you have to be more careful.

LOTS of armies...
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AlvaroSousa
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Re: The China problem

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Seems like it's balanced then if players are saying "too easy" and "too hard" lol.

This is how I designed China
reality -> unconquerable
game mechanics -> fairly unconquerable
game potential -> you can cripple them to the point they are just a fly annoying you
game usual -> beat them up taking Kunming and Changsha so they can't form counter attacks, form a stable line
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