@loki100

[MarkShot]

@loki100,

I get the sense you are not returning. But one never knows if you are lurking. So, I write this (just in case).

Loki,

I can honestly say that I would not have picked up 4 GG titles without your willingness to answer my questions directly. My gaming world is richer for your generous nature with your time.

I can also say whenever I saw one of your posts, I always checked it as more often than not there was something to learn there; even when covered in the manual, your posts put it into a "usage" context for me.

Furthermore, I don't know if you came up with the "living manual concept", but I do know you were the engine behind it. As we know many games these days don't even have documentation, or depend on players to write it in WiKis. Honestly, an appalling practice. So, the idea of having a 500 page manual, and keeping it up to date greatly reduces the entry barrier even for those with time and motivation to approach the hardcore space. Also, the approach of embedding it into the original manual as opposed to reading a 16 page out of context change log is far superior.

I am sure I have forgotten things here. But I wanted to publicly thank you. A final thread announcing punitive action against you is a travesty for a legacy of someone who has left their mark on titles which will be remembered for decades, and left a mark on my life and retirement.

Your departure is not simply a loss for Matrix/Slitherine and 2by3, but a personal loss to my world and favorite hobby.

Thank you for everything!

Success and happy trails where ever life takes you!

Sincerely,

Mark

[DesertedFox]

+1.

[aMaschina]

+1

But I think his 1 month ban has not yet passed.

[actrade]

I lurk a LOT more than post, but do hope Loki comes back. His insights are priceless into this and other Matrix strategy games.

[ShaggyHiK]

What if Loki created this topic?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

What if Loki created this topic?

I don't think Markshot is a sock puppet. But hey, what do I know, nothing. On the other hand there was an account or two that are highly suspect that posted but hasn't for awhile since the banning.

Which brings up the question, "Why doesn't Matrix games(Slitherine) control the accounts so you can have one and one only account here and be verified"? Would get rid of the silly sock-puppet game that are played by people of low stature.

[MarkShot]

I created this topic.

I joined when Panther Games left Big Time Software around 2001 to be publish by David Heath and Matrix. I worked on RDOA (BTS), HTTR, COTA, and BFTB. Exactly what would you like to know to verify that I am who I say I am?

We have since moved to David's new company LnL Publishing. Command Ops 2 is available now through Steam and is awaiting the next patch by Dave O'Connor.

Did Loki know anything about the history of that series? I think not. Do you?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I created this topic.

I joined when Panther Games left Big Time Software around 2001 to be publish by David Heath and Matrix. I worked on RDOA (BTS), HTTR, COTA, and BFTB. Exactly what would you like to know to verify that I am who I say I am?

We have since moved to David's new company LnL Publishing. Command Ops 2 is available now through Steam and is awaiting the next patch by Dave O'Connor.

I remember you from old Why I said I don't think you are. It is just unfortunate that loki used many sock puppets to do his bidding and has many on this forum suspecting everyone they see. Please forgive them for that. But I too think loki did a good job on the manual along with the BETA team. The living manual came out of WITE1 community and carried on to WITE2 another great feature.

[MarkShot]

There is a huge difference being a beta for a AAA title and being a beta for an indie developer.

The AAA title has a large team and budget. They will have paid research staff, paid scenario design/test staff, and paid SQA staff. The indie developer is often 1 or 2 guys with dreams who have a concept and some programming. They often begin by doing everything; just 2 or 3 guys. It usually isn't until the first title is finally pushed out that they may get some betas. It's never a large team of betas ... 2-4X the number of the principals. The betas do it for various reasons. Of course, they like the game, but their focus might be on the content, their focus might be scenarios they always wished someone would do, or their focus might be very impressed with the design and engine itself.

I became a beta quite a few times due to liking the game and having a background in systems. It takes having a background in systems to say this game is beautiful in a non-art sense. The Panther model hasn't really changed since the first title RDOA, but each release has been a new battle space of WWII and new features ... supply, better arty, more sophisticated AI agents ... the big change since leaving Matrix was going from a fixed screen layout to independent floating windows.

I was a beta for Mad Minute Games, and that was beautiful design too. Unlike Panther you commanded, but were not always the senior commander. A fascination perspective of being in mid-level command.

I was an investor in AGEOD and member, but did little beta work. Another beautiful engine with a very intuitive drag and drop map interface. Also, our lead designer did such a nice job on the modular engine design, he was always back porting new features into older titles all the time.

Rather late, I discovered GG's work mainly because I was very snobbish about anything that said TBS ... I would say 'oh, chess again with hexes'. But this is again beautiful, the modeling, the complexity of processes, the way multiple scales of time coexist, and the way time is able to transcend turns in WITW and WITE-2 ... also the beautiful data displays that rival a professional securities trading work station. And Gary has not been married to one evolving engine model. I have WITP-AE and EDBTR, they are entirely different ... it seems only WITE-1/WITW/WITE-2 were evolutionary.

My point is that people become betas, because they find something captivating that they love when working with indie developers. I had a great time on the titles I mentioned.

I don't understand where all the hostility comes from these days. I mainly contributed on the systems design side, documentation, promotional materials, and rigorous testing. Loki was a very talented beta. I have visited his business. He has a PhD. Anyone with a PhD knows how to research and write, but that is, in fact, his career ... research and writing.

You cannot hire people like that as a Panther Games or 2by3 Games or Slitherine Publishing; not senior systems designers and many other skills. Without the betas who participate with the indie developers our hobby wouldn't be half of what it is.

I just wanted to let Loki know that I understand what an investment he made and his professional talent which comes through in these products. I will miss him and his expertise very much. The last official message posted about him was atrocious. I cannot fix that, but unofficially I can and will say something consistent with the legacy he has left all of us and our hobby.

Thank you, Loki. (Hopefully, the accusations of "sock puppet" and what not will stop here.)

[HardLuckYetAgain]

(Hopefully, the accusations of "sock puppet" and what not will stop here.)

Thank you for the post MarkShot. I am sorry to say that these are "no" accusations against loki. It is a fact having been done by him and thus the ban. I do agree we have to get to a system where this can't be done and anyone that post is not targeted like you were for it, thus what you mentioned above stops completely. But currently that is the nature of the beast brought on by individuals stooping to this level of deceit on this current board.

[MarkShot]

I guess I must have been in a coma. I remember posting almost daily on an AAR for a new titles, or tutorial, or tips/tricks. I honestly don't recall anyone being rude. The harshest I ever heard is someone didn't like the game design and would not buy it. Well, of course, this is their right. And customer or not, you got your questions answered. 1 out of every 10 posts would see Dave, the developer pop-in.

The AGEOD forums were warm and friendly as well. I was friends with our Admin, and he spent more time dealing with site technical issues than BS members issue. The greatest nuisance we had was the unstoppable army of SPAMers.

What has happened over last 10+ years to promote so much hostility on gaming/hobby boards?

[Stamb]

this is what happened
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=385744

[Beethoven1]

I just wanted to let Loki know that I understand what an investment he made and his professional talent which comes through in these products. I will miss him and his expertise very much. The last official message posted about him was atrocious. I cannot fix that, but unofficially I can and will say something consistent with the legacy he has left all of us and our hobby.

Thank you, Loki. (Hopefully, the accusations of "sock puppet" and what not will stop here.)

I am not 100% sure, but it sounds like you may be a bit confused/misled if you were not active with the game for a bit and were not following this whole brouhaha closely.

If so, I will try to explain.

The last official message about Loki was simply the forum mods saying that they had found evidence that Loki had made alts/sock puppets, and that is a violation of the forum rules. There is nothing "atrocious" about that, they were simply stating a fact (that Loki made an alt/sock puppet) according to the evidence available to them. And then they simply enforced the forum rules, which apply to everyone, and which call for a 1 month ban in cases like this where someone makes an alt account and pretends not to be who they are. One important point is also that the moderators did not say which particular alts Loki made, so we do not know for sure which they were, and if there was only one, or if there were more than one. Naturally this tends to create a climate of suspicion, which is the reason why posters are jumpy and not sure who is an alt and who is not an alt.

Possibly you might be confusing this with messages posted by "Killmaster" which were of an unacceptable nature and were targeted towards personally attacking Loki.

Similarly to with Loki, the moderators gave "killmaster" a 1 month ban for violation of the forum rules. But this was not the last official message posted about Loki, and does not (directly) have to do with Loki's 1 month ban. What "killmaster" did was wrong, but what Loki did with regards to making (at least?) one alt was also wrong.

I do not know who "killmaster" was - perhaps it is a truly unique poster, or perhaps it is someone's alt. If "killmaster" was an alt, then logically, either it must have been some idiot troll who was trying to harass/personally attack Loki, or alternatively it was someone who was attacking/harassing Loki because they knew that this would naturally evoke sympathy for Loki on the part of other well meaning posters (such as yourself). I would assume and certainly hope that it is the former rather than the latter, but currently we have no way to know for sure, because only the moderators can see IP traces, and I would assume that the moderators cannot share that info due to privacy policies.

It is true that Loki has done good things for the game and the community such as writing his AARs and helping out new players by answering questions etc etc. But it is also true that he made a mistake by making one (or more???) alts and making posts while pretending to be someone else - especially posts about himself while pretending to be someone else. And it is also true that Killmaster's posts were unacceptable.

All of these things can be (and are) true at once. There is no contradiction between them. Or, in other words, one wrong does not justify another wrong.

[RedLancer]

this is what happened
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=385744

I would have thought that somebody on a final warning with regard to stoking the loki100 situation would be more measured.

For the record I do not condone loki100's breaking of forum rules.

@Stamb - twice you have made insinuations against me with regard loki100 and moderation. In no post until today have I made any post in which you and loki100 have been mentioned. I've been away and as other moderators had locked the threads I wasn't going to undermine their decisions.

So I say this now because the door is open - you and your sort are what destroys the good nature of this forum. Your personal crusade to make the game what you personally believe is best, come what may, is exactly why I made my 'A moderator asks you to stop and think' post. Passive aggressiveness and hounding forum members who don't agree with your vision will never make the game what you want. Your input to this game has been a pittance compared to loki100 and I. Loki100's mistake is not an excuse for you to continue your toxic behaviour.

For the benefit of this community please do try and take me on and you'll go the same way as Pelton, Hanny and some others who I no longer remember. Will lock this post so people can consider before they open this box again.

[Erik Rutins]

I just wanted to let Loki know that I understand what an investment he made and his professional talent which comes through in these products. I will miss him and his expertise very much. The last official message posted about him was atrocious. I cannot fix that, but unofficially I can and will say something consistent with the legacy he has left all of us and our hobby.

Thank you, Loki. (Hopefully, the accusations of "sock puppet" and what not will stop here.)

For the record, there are no members who earn exceptions to the forum rules, as you know. Despite agreeing that Loki has been incredibly helpful overall and a very valuable member of the community who has also had to deal with harassment directed his way, he made a bad mistake and misjudgement in choosing to break the forum rules and he received a just punishment for that. The sock puppet is not an accusation, it did happen. Loki did it and has apologized. What drove him to do it is a separate discussion and we are keeping a close eye on that and anyone who breaks the forum rules will have the same standards applied to them.

Discussing bans if you have an objection is best done privately with the mods, to avoid the impression of trolling.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Possibly you might be confusing this with messages posted by "Killmaster" which were of an unacceptable nature and were targeted towards personally attacking Loki.
Similarly to with Loki, the moderators gave "killmaster" a 1 month ban for violation of the forum rules. But this was not the last official message posted about Loki, and does not (directly) have to do with Loki's 1 month ban. What "killmaster" did was wrong, but what Loki did with regards to making (at least?) one alt was also wrong.

Killmaster's posts were indeed atrocious and Killmaster ended up receiving a permanent ban. We also permanently banned a later sock puppet account that was created to harass Loki further, we suspect once again created by "Killmaster".

It is true that Loki has done good things for the game and the community such as writing his AARs and helping out new players by answering questions etc etc. But it is also true that he made a mistake by making one (or more???) alts and making posts while pretending to be someone else - especially posts about himself while pretending to be someone else. And it is also true that Killmaster's posts were unacceptable.

All of these things can be (and are) true at once. There is no contradiction between them. Or, in other words, one wrong does not justify another wrong.

Indeed.

[Erik Rutins]

For the record I do not condone loki100's breaking of forum rules.

@Stamb - twice you have made insinuations against me with regard loki100 and moderation. In no post until today have I made any post in which you and loki100 have been mentioned. I've been away and as other moderators had locked the threads I wasn't going to undermine their decisions.

So I say this now because the door is open - you and your sort are what destroys the good nature of this forum. Your personal crusade to make the game what you personally believe is best, come what may, is exactly why I made my 'A moderator asks you to stop and think' post. Passive aggressiveness and hounding forum members who don't agree with your vision will never make the game what you want. Your input to this game has been a pittance compared to loki100 and I. Loki100's mistake is not an excuse for you to continue your toxic behaviour.

For the benefit of this community please do try and take me on and you'll go the same way as Pelton, Hanny and some others who I no longer remember. Will lock this post so people can consider before they open this box again.

For the record, I had a discussion with Red Lancer based on a report regarding this post. Moderators are not above the forum rules and the above can be read as a personal attack on Stamb.

I've officially warned Red Lancer that this is against the forum rules and our moderation policies. Our expectation is that all moderators, both staff, dev team and community volunteers, will hold themselves to the highest standard in terms of the following the forum rules and setting an example for others. When calling out others for either violating the forum rules or coming close to crossing those lines, we have to keep to the facts and point out any rule violations and stick to that.

Regards,

- Erik