[1.11.06] AT Guns not getting Calibre Modifier

[GazBot]

Hello

AT guns have not been working as intended for a long time I suspect. I think I now know why. I tested AT guns by attacking tank formations and looking at the detailed combat results....

When I do this I see that their is no Caliber modifier been applied to the AT gun attack value;


https://www.dropbox.com/s/430i02d6agkod ... t.PNG?dl=0

So when you would be expecting a 180mm AT gun to getting a good bonus modifier against a 100mm arnoured target but instead you get none. The modifier does seem to be applied when Armoured Vehicles attack and defend as shown below;


https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8sbumkfsv6tj ... D.PNG?dl=0

In the above example its called a "Caliber Matrix Modifier"

I suspect this is why AT guns are next to useless in the game as it currently stands epsecially once tanks have polymer armour.....Im guessing this is an error and is not working as intended.

Cheers

Gaz

PS cant seem to get the image tags to work.....

[GazBot]

Just to add - another observation regarding AT Guns....The attack value of the AT Gun is also applied against the "non-infantry hit points" of the the arnoured vehicle. I think this should be applied to the infantry hit points of the vehicle instead - or alternatively increase the Caliber Modifier even more for the larger over penetration scenarios ......

I think this makes sense as the AT gun is treated like an infantry team..... so the defense value of the tank should be based of the infantry as opposed to non-infantry value....

[Don_Kiyote]

Thanks for the research.

Im just designing AT guns around now in my current game, so I cant look any closer for now. But I remember wondering why they seemed ineffective in an earlier game.

Is there *never* any Caliber Matrix Modifier, *at all*, for ATGs, either on the attack or defense? I see it in my battles all the time; you don't necessarily have to go in to the detailed view to find a listing for it.

If it's never there at all, then that might be an advantage to the guns sometimes, if it meant that '40s work as well as '150s...

Also, your second image shows a Blitzer defending against a Medium Tank, and being outclassed by its armor by about 50mm. So what were the 'caliber' numbers of the ATG attacker and Tank defender in the first image? If they were the same amount, then there could simply be no Caliber Matrix Modifier involved this time.

[GazBot]

The first image was a 180mm HV AT gun vs 100mm armour on the tank, so should certainly be a +ve modifier..... Ive tested this numerous times and never seen a modifier on an AT gun, either -ve or +ve....

[Soar_Slitherine]

Not a bug. Caliber modifiers can only ever penalize attacks, they don't give a bonus, regardless of model type. It's stated in the manual section under Models that discusses the mechanic.

[Voker57]

I think it makes sense for AT guns to use hard HP. They are not infantry, but Guns, and not sneaky at all, and therefore cannot pick vulnerable point to shoot. And their high Defense makes sure they are fine attacking hard HP. However, this should be documented. And agree with previous poster, caliber modifier only can apply maluses, not bonuses, so it's not a bug.

[GazBot]

Yep, it appears that only negative bonuses are applied...well that explains it. Though Id still argue the AT guns seem underpowered against anything with polymer armour.....even light tanks and youd think the 300mm HV guns should be quite effective against these....

Well if its not the Caliber Modifier then - I think its the non-inf hitpoints used by the armoured vehicles is whats unbalancing it.

I would suggest the ATguns being infantry crew served weapons should be compared against the infantry hit point value of the armoured formations as opposed to non-infantry....I think this would balance the AT Gun / Armour model types well....

And AT guns where traditionally always well concealed if being used correctly.....and ideally well entrenched....

[Vic]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I'll see in september (holidays right now) if I can nudge the AT guns a bit. I am sympathetic to the idea

best wishes,
Vic

[eddieballgame]

This has been a very informative post & I would like to see the AT guns pack a little more umph, as well.
I used them a lot in the beginning, (2020) but became less impressed with them; particularly when factoring in the ammo cost.

[GazBot]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I'll see in september (holidays right now) if I can nudge the AT guns a bit. I am sympathetic to the idea

best wishes,
Vic

Thats great!!! I think it will open up the game play a fair bit and allow for more varied strategies!!!!