Attrition question

[Light4bettor]

Background: Polizei Infantry Division on turn 4 opts not to move the entire turn- ends the turn adjacent to 3 unoccupied enemy hexes. Infantry squad strength at this point is 308 ready sqds and 11 damaged squads.

At the start of turn 5, the computer has moved 2 units adjacent to Poliz., I noticed that Polizei's infantry squad strength had gone down to 285 ready squads and and 15 damaged squads (the division was not bombed or participated in any combat during the Soviet phase).

It's a bit perplexing to see the ready squads drop by 23 squads (230 trained infantrymen)- from attrition/low intensity fighting in just one turn. Maybe a company (+) went on a probe/recon patrol and got ambushed- or their Leutnant couldn't read a map- and patrolled them into a corner and they were captured. I dunno.

I read the attrition levels were upped on this new beta (and to be clear I don't know if this is related)- I know there is some variance even in low intensity conflict that is represented by the attrition phase- but I feel this level of attrition loss (if that is in fact what caused this) delves into egregious territory. However, this level of loss is not a common occurrence, as far as I can tell- but I have a sense that it happens more than I catch.

Anyone get similar results sometimes?
PS. as far as the fatigue levels going up from zero levels to 20-- I assume this is in the rules because they are now adjacent to enemy units.

Turn 4 end state:

Polizeiendoftrn4infantrystrength .png (3.71 MiB) Viewed 1171 times

Turn 5 start state:

PolizeiInfantrystrengthstarttrn5.png (4.14 MiB) Viewed 1171 times

[DesertedFox]

Need a dev to give a definitive answer but my guess is attrition casualties were increased due to the very low casualties both sides are having compared with history.

Post your casualties by turn and compare them with the table below.


HEER PERSONNEL CASUALTIES BARBAROSSA 22 June - 31 Dec 1941

Up to 3 July 1941 -- Up to 13 August 1941 -- Up to 31 December 1941


Wounded-- 38,809 -- 287,088 -- 621,308

Killed --11,822 -- 83,517 -- 173,722

Missing --3,961 -- 19,319 -- 35,873

54,592 -- 389,924 -- 830,903


Sources: The Halder's War Diary. F. Halder.

Here are some casualties from a current AAR - link provided, as of DEC 7TH. You will find most "balanced" AARs have similar figures.



https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... &start=180

The same goes for Russian losses.

Description --Irrecoverable losses --Wounded & sick --Total losses
1941 3rd Q --2,129,677 -- 687,626 -- 2,817,303
1941 4th Q --1,007,996 -- 648,521 -- 1,656,517


Edited: Bear in mind, that wounded/disabled casualties do filter back over time and the game AAR reference is a snapshot of that date only.

[Jango32]

The game does not track wounded who recover within the same week/month. It only tracks casualties as either killed, captured or disabled/unfit requiring several months' worth of recuperation.

For example about 509 000 wounded Germans from June to December 1941 recuperated and returned to their unit in the same year.

EDIT:

23.10.3. Damaged and Disrupted Elements
If an element is damaged then it might be subsequently either fully recover or be lost. Damaged manpower is best seen as men with significant wounds that require a degree of hospitalisation but most will return to their unit.

Those damaged elements in-game don't show up as disabled precisely because they aren't sent into the production pools to recuperate. And because there is no separate tracker for wounded, they are invisible as far as the casualties screen goes.

[DesertedFox]

To complicate matters more how many of those returning soldiers were wounded a second, third time etc?

[Jango32]

Don't know, but that doesn't alter the fact that the casualties screen in the game does not take into account damaged elements.

[DesertedFox]

Lol...what part of my comment

To complicate matters more how many of those returning soldiers were wounded a second, third time etc?

was an indication that I disagree with you? In fact, it's an inference that I agree with you.

Depending on the relative flow of new battlefield losses
and earlier losses (who are more likely to have recovered
and be returned to their units) then the ‘disabled’ entry on
the loss screen may be negative (i.e. more men recovered
from being disabled that turn than became disabled).

[Jango32]

Misread the comment. My bad.



As to the OP, dunno what to say aside from the fatigue level. Yes, you can generate fatigue for free just by hugging the enemy unit.

[AlbertN]

Last patch increased attrition rates. That is the reason (Assuming you're playing latest beta).

A change I personally deem game breaker - but that is my opinion.

[ncc1701e]

Last patch increased attrition rates. That is the reason (Assuming you're playing latest beta).

A change I personally deem game breaker - but that is my opinion.

The patch is only out since 10 days. This is a little early to assess on the long run.

[Veterin]

Last patch increased attrition rates. That is the reason (Assuming you're playing latest beta).

A change I personally deem game breaker - but that is my opinion.

The patch is only out since 10 days. This is a little early to assess on the long run.

I haven't noticed a particularly large increase on the new patch. It's a little hard to tell though as attrition is hidden in the logistic phase where there are lots of other moving parts that could be driving manpower movements.

[PeteJC]

I have been playing the game steadily since its release. I play the Soviet AI in the Grand Campaign with the VP checks for victory. I have only been going to turn 16 (1st VP check) as I have been interested on working on a Barbarossa quick win strategy. I just finished one under the latest beta patch (.39). Below in order of most recent (top) to oldest(bottom) game are the Total Casuality results for both sides at the end of turn 15:

German/Soviet

508K/3.5M
377K/3.5M
407K/3.4M
400K/3.5M
396K/3.2M
392K/3M
403K/3.4M

All things being equal there is a 25% jump for the Germans in this patch and no increase for the Soviets. However, I should note that I played my last game with a new and rather important self-imposed house rule which did not allow me to break any units into regiments when creating pockets after turn 2. I did this to make up for the extreme passiveness of the Soviet AI in regard to breaking out of pockets (no attacks just movement until it bumps up against something). The new rule did result into some large pockets being broken by the AI but ultimately few Soviet units escaped the next turn. So, this rule results in pockets taking longer to liquidate but I do not think it really reduces the ultimate number of Soviet casualties. I cannot think of any other things I did differently in this last game that could explain the higher German losses other than the new attrition rate.

I did not win this last game at T16 but it is not because of the new attrition rate. It is mostly the added delay of pocket reduction that did not allow me to take Rostov and Ryazan which are two cities that I must take (assuming no Moscow or Sevastopol conquest) to get to 700 VP. Then again, my overall TOEs were lower especially by turn 13 so the attrition may have had a larger underlying effect then I think.