Next patch

[Nirosi]

According to manual, each sub point represents 2-3 active subs at any given time. Assuming, maybe Alvaro can confirm, that it also represents the same amount of inactive subs, 62 subs would be about 12 steps over 3 years (or 1 every 3 months). Not negligeable, but certainly not game changing.

[AlvaroSousa]

This is 10 points of subs in 2 years in WP scale.

[AlvaroSousa]

With air power in Iceland you could sink/damage about that much.

The war of BotA is not an obvious X for Y cost ratio. It is more complex than that. Essentially it is a battle of the least attrition as is strategic bombing. You have to commit to the game or lose a tremendous amount of production. You are buying into it to prevent future losses. So while buying a strat bomber to put in Iceland seems like a poor decision but its presence and operation force subs to go back home which reduces convoy losses.

[ncc1701e]

With air power in Iceland you could sink/damage about that much.

The war of BotA is not an obvious X for Y cost ratio. It is more complex than that. Essentially it is a battle of the least attrition as is strategic bombing. You have to commit to the game or lose a tremendous amount of production. You are buying into it to prevent future losses. So while buying a strat bomber to put in Iceland seems like a poor decision but its presence and operation force subs to go back home which reduces convoy losses.

Strategic bombers with Detection and Elec. usually fails to locate subs. And they are losing effectiveness for failed searches.

[PanzerMike]

Looking forward to the patch. Got any more solid date yet?

[AlvaroSousa]

Working on the new patch this week. Got a good 20-30 things on it. Sometimes it takes a week to get it all done and tested.

[PanzerMike]

Check uit the thread about the Azores. Maybe a little bug there.

[AlvaroSousa]

Been thinking about the "France is too strong" posts and how to balance it.

After doing some research I came up with a solution based on UK tank production figures.

Since the French really don't have the resources to build 2 tanks they won't be adjusted.

But I am strongly considering delaying UK's ability to build armor and mech until March of 1940.
They still do get the WDF of course.

Reading about the divisions that were forming they simply didn't have enough tanks. They also weren't skilled at the tactics of armored attacks just yet.

Also looking at World in Flames counters the UK has a very limited force pool of tanks. It takes a mountain of effort to get a Big BEF in WIF but little effort in WP. Of course pouring in infantry into France wouldn't be that good.

I think this should help the France 1940 situation.

Thoughts?

[Nirosi]

I think it is a good and elegant idea as we will not see 4-5 (even up to 6) allied tanks/mechs in France anymore.

However, the UK could still build 2 inf for each unbuilt tank and send them to France (making a very slow grinding and a race to finish before rain). Could it be wise to also reduce the UK MP (manpower) production early on (leave enough for repairs and a few build but much less than now). And then, not to weaken UK too much for post-France, give back the missing MP (ang augment production to normal) as an event (March 1940 as well maybe?) showing people's willingness to come forward and defend their country?

UK will end-up with same strength more or less, but delayed to late May or June.

[ncc1701e]

Most of UK divisions in 1939/1940 were in fact coastal defense divisions. You have introduced them for Japanese in WPP. Why not introduced them for UK in WPE?

This will limit the number of infantry corps in France in 1940.

Would also like a better experience for the Luftwaffe. 70% for the four air sup groups to counter the RAF. RAF can be very strong in France, a little too strong for me.

[generalfdog]

Most of UK divisions in 1939/1940 were in fact coastal defense divisions. You have introduced them for Japanese in WPP. Why not introduced them for UK in WPE?

This will limit the number of infantry corps in France in 1940.

Would also like a better experience for the Luftwaffe. 70% for the four air sup groups to counter the RAF. RAF can be very strong in France, a little too strong for me.

I like those ideas, a little weaker UK I think would be nice, I have always thought sea lion being a more viable strategy could give the game some more interesting paths

[AlvaroSousa]

Historically Sealion was impossible. Germans very likely could not pull it off.

But yea this is a game not history. Putting the armor in 1940 still lets the UK have armor for Sealion. But it makes a difference in France.

I noticed games are a little favoring the Allies late war.

[PanzerMike]

Delaying UK's ability to build armor and mech until March of 1940 seems like a good idea. Pulling of a defeat of France in a few months is really tough now.

Of course there is also hindsight. We all know France won't last. So you use them as throwaway troops to exact the highest possible price from the Germans. French command was rubbish and morale low. Maybe weaken them a little more instead of weakening the UK any further (besides limiting the UK tank production early on).

Another thought: maybe the Dutch and the Belgians are a bit too strong as well. Taking Holland and Belgium should not take more than one turn. The Dutch lasted 5 days, the Belgians 18 days. Basically 1 WP turn.

[ncc1701e]

Netherlands and Belgium in the same turn are perfectly feasible.

[stjeand]

My suggestion would be...

1) France can't build armor. They did not know how to use them...the spread them out so having a corps of armor was not possible.
2) Remove a French Corps and give them a cavalry. They had them...but no one in their right mind builds one.
3) IF you want to take away the UK armor then put one in their deployment queue. Sealion after the air change is simple for perform. Though to hold but I can take almost any city in the south no matter what UK unit is there...infantry, armor or mech. NOW if they UK sacrifice their navy by putting battleships outside each port that is not possible but then they might lose most of their navy to German air. The UK would not risk that.
4) Perhaps require the UK to garrison Britain and increase the garrison level and time moves forward, then after Germany attack Russia it can all be dropped.

Just some thoughts.


I used to take Belgium and the Netherlands in one turn...but it is more expensive not it seems then before. Not sure why...maybe just my bad luck.
The reason I don't is because France is much more expensive to take, manpower and air wise...especially air if the UK and France pour out fighters.

[generalfdog]

My suggestion would be...

1) France can't build armor. They did not know how to use them...the spread them out so having a corps of armor was not possible.
2) Remove a French Corps and give them a cavalry. They had them...but no one in their right mind builds one.
3) IF you want to take away the UK armor then put one in their deployment queue. Sealion after the air change is simple for perform. Though to hold but I can take almost any city in the south no matter what UK unit is there...infantry, armor or mech. NOW if they UK sacrifice their navy by putting battleships outside each port that is not possible but then they might lose most of their navy to German air. The UK would not risk that.
4) Perhaps require the UK to garrison Britain and increase the garrison level and time moves forward, then after Germany attack Russia it can all be dropped.

Just some thoughts.


I used to take Belgium and the Netherlands in one turn...but it is more expensive not it seems then before. Not sure why...maybe just my bad luck.
The reason I don't is because France is much more expensive to take, manpower and air wise...especially air if the UK and France pour out fighters.

I agree with most of that, I don't like garrison requirements I think it should be organic by which I mean the UK should be cautious because they should fear losing to much in France because the want to prevent a sea lion. I agree with no French or UK armor or make them suck like early USSR stuff, I don't think UK air force should be weakened, historically the RAF is what stopped sea lion so they need to be good. France is still a little too difficult for Germany. So do you think sea lion is already easy to do? I haven't seen that yet but I wish it was so because it should be a viable alternate strategy I feel but have yet to see it done or been able to perform it successfully with any regularity

[stjeand]

Well IF I focus on Sealion and the UK player is not suspecting it yes it is not crazy difficult to start. To win is a different thing.
You have to have a LOT of fighters and close support to be sure to pound the UK navy when the come out block port supply.
But if they can't they are in trouble. The Germans can easily take Plymouth...it is unstoppable. I put a UK armor there and the Germans dust it first attack with all their air and navy showing up.
You also have to be doing well in the BOA as the Axis...if that has gone badly the UK is not spending production on MM...so they have extra.

NOW next turn is the key. The UK will send their navy...hopefully they have been busy with uboats to the CV and DD are worn down. That leave just the BBs and CAs that will get to hit the Bismarck and fleet.

Then the Germans move multiple units there on transport, same turn leaving them on transport...hoping the UK airforce is not able to heavily damage them while in port.
Next you see 4 panzer corps on the UK mainland...

The UK just can't leave ships at sea guarding Plymouth because the German airforce is too powerful at that time.


NOW with France and UK building lots of fighters they can decimate the German airforce and that eliminates any and all chances for successful Sealion unless the UK player does not suspect it at all.

This makes for a very boring game as once the Germans get a foothold the UK can't really do much against multiple armor units.

Sadly this is not easy to test...because the Allies player knows you are coming so they build totally different units.


I don't want to weaken the UK just limit what they can dump into France.

Perhaps another option would be that the UK has garrison "home guard" units that have poor movement, like the garrison units the Japanese have but then after the fall of France they upgrade to "normal" units.
That is a lot of work though.

House rule is the easiest soloution.

[PanzerMike]

Do you do sealion in late 1940 or in 1941? There is a short window to do it in 1940, but at max you gain a foothold and then the weather makes any progress virtually impossible. You have to sit out the winter in your little foothold before you can continue.

Which begs another question, what do you think about the weather in general? The autumn and winter months basically bring the game to a standstill. Is it overdone? Too much bad weather? Too much bad weather effects? Thoughts?

[stjeand]

Do you do sealion in late 1940 or in 1941? There is a short window to do it in 1940, but at max you gain a foothold and then the weather makes any progress virtually impossible. You have to sit out the winter in your little foothold before you can continue.

Which begs another question, what do you think about the weather in general? The autumn and winter months basically bring the game to a standstill. Is it overdone? Too much bad weather? Too much bad weather effects? Thoughts?

Well it sort of depends on the situation.
IF I can catch the UK player exposed...I might try to land in 40...the issue is that give them the entire winter to pull back units from all over the globe to dig in and now I have shown my hand.

If the Axis can get a good push in Africa and a good BOA then the UK will ship down a few units to Africa and build some MM...but if they just turtle it can get tough for the Axis to push around in the UK even in 41

But I like 41...

The couple times I did it I had 4 armor corps in the UK on the second turn of the invasion along with 2 paratroopers. Often a few armies are cut...the German navy is rough if still floating but the German airforce is big and with them and 4 armor they can push any unit in the UK aside which is the issue.

I don't bother with Infantry early because you need units that can make the UK ones retreat.
Also I love to paradrop on UK air units...Sometimes I have 3 paratroopers so after they see 2 they shift differently then the 3rd comes down taking out another air...if you catch that you can take out quite a few UK air units from the fight.

[AlvaroSousa]

Sealion is a grind into 1941. The hope is to take them out before Uncle Sam gets really pissed off. At the very least you can cripple them then pull back for a 1942 Barb. At the same time you should be pounding all their other positions putting maximum pressure on the UK.

Killing the UK in 1940 is incredibly hard to do even for an experienced player vs a novice wargamer. You might be able to kill the UK in 1940 against my wife who isn't a wargamer and just builds ships.