Help me understand correlation of Escort/CAP missions and range

[BananaConvention]

Hey all,

As I understand if, if you are using a fighter squadron on Escort/CAP %, the maximum range you input determines how far either the mission will escort a strike from home base, AND/OR how far your CAP is allowed to "wander" from its assigned CAP location.

Question 1: Am I understanding this correctly? Does the range determine anything for missions set on CAP, or does the game interpret that any fighters set to CAP are to strictly remain in their home base hex? I couldn't find anything in the manual about this.

Question 2:And how about this scenario? I have an F4F Squadron on a carrier, I want it to both fly CAP and fly escort for a strike. I select ESCORT mission, 50% CAP. The rest of the squadron is allowed to escort, and I set the max range to 6. Does that mean that both the escort package can fly six hexes away, AND the CAP can wander 6 hexes from the carrier, or does the game retain the CAP at 0-hex?

Helppppppp!

[RangerJoe]

Hey all,

As I understand if, if you are using a fighter squadron on Escort/CAP %, the maximum range you input determines how far either the mission will escort a strike from home base, AND/OR how far your CAP is allowed to "wander" from its assigned CAP location.

They key word is AND not OR, CAP will fly to the maximum range but not very effectively. For more effect CAP nor over the home base, use LRCAP but note that it is more tiring as well as leading to higher OPs losses.

Question 1: Am I understanding this correctly? Does the range determine anything for missions set on CAP, or does the game interpret that any fighters set to CAP are to strictly remain in their home base hex? I couldn't find anything in the manual about this.

The range set for the unit will determine how far the unit may fly for the mission. I don't have my manual open but look up "air missions" where it may discuss this.

Question 2:And how about this scenario? I have an F4F Squadron on a carrier, I want it to both fly CAP and fly escort for a strike. I select ESCORT mission, 50% CAP. The rest of the squadron is allowed to escort, and I set the max range to 6. Does that mean that both the escort package can fly six hexes away, AND the CAP can wander 6 hexes from the carrier, or does the game retain the CAP at 0-hex?

Both the CAP and the ESCORT will fly out to six hexes. If you have enough room on your carriers, you can put an extra fighter unit on them just for CAP at range zero. Or you can have a carrier or more with only fighter on CAP or fighters on CAP along with bombers on SEARCH and/or ASW missions.

Helppppppp!

I hope these responses help.

[BananaConvention]

Ranger, this helps immensely. It confirmed what I suspected. Best to pack other squadrons for sole mission types OR divide your sole unit into 3 and give each fragment a specific mission so as not to muddle the orders.

[BBfanboy]

Not sure RJ gave this answer so I will give the simple one. You set your CAP on Escort mission at range 0. You set your % aircraft on CAP. When a strike mission flies any fighters not doing CAP will escort the strike if the range permits. The Escort mission uses the strike mission's range and the available fighters. Setting 0 range for CAP does not negate escorting a strike.

[RangerJoe]

Air missions start on page 139.

page 143
Air Units
7.1 AIR UNIT INFORMATION SCREEN

Scrolling down to page 154
"The Maximum Range sets the maximum range in hexes that the squadron will travel in order
to reach the target. The air unit will not exceed this distance when picking a target using
Commander’s Discretion whether the target is for a strike Mission, escort, or Long-range CAP.
However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore
this max range setting. Planes executing a Naval Search or ASW Patrol Mission will only search
out to the Maximum Range that has been set for them. The shorter the range set, the greater
the chance they will spot a TF within their range setting."

So if a player wants to set CAP only over the home base yet escort bombers to an enemy target, then I presume that the fighters can have a target set so they will exceed the set range to that target but only for bomber escort. Otherwise with no target set, they will only escort to the limit of their set range which can be 0 which means only in the base hex itself.

[RangerJoe]

The problem is that you won't have enough air groups to do everything. So having flying boats and float planes searching while also training ASW is not necessarily a bad thing.

But that early in the war, Alaska is safe so the air groups there are better off on 100% training.

[Chris21wen]

So if a player wants to set CAP only over the home base yet escort bombers to an enemy target, then I presume that the fighters can have a target set so they will exceed the set range to that target but only for bomber escort. Otherwise with no target set, they will only escort to the limit of their set range which can be 0 which means only in the base hex itself.

I read this and considering how long I've played never realised! I thought what, so tested it for escorts confirming some stuff I knew, other stuff I didn't.

A/c will not exceed the range set unless a target is selected. Why didn't I know this?
A/c based on small a/f (<4) will not fly extended missions.
A/c based on small a/f (<4) will not use drop tanks. If drop tanks were set they seemed to prevent any flight which I didn't know?

[dmaramba]

So if a player wants to set CAP only over the home base yet escort bombers to an enemy target, then I presume that the fighters can have a target set so they will exceed the set range to that target but only for bomber escort. Otherwise with no target set, they will only escort to the limit of their set range which can be 0 which means only in the base hex itself.

I read this and considering how long I've played never realised! I thought what, so tested it for escorts confirming some stuff I knew, other stuff I didn't.

A/c will not exceed the range set unless a target is selected. Why didn't I know this?

Here is what the manual says (E-Book version, page 154):

The Maximum Range sets the maximum range in hexes that the squadron will travel in order
to reach the target. The air unit will not exceed this distance when picking a target using
Commander’s Discretion whether the target is for a strike Mission, escort, or Long-range CAP.
However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore
this max range setting.

Now forgive the long post everyone. I want to address the question of CAP and the squadron Maximum Range setting raised by the OP.

Note what mission is NOT mentioned in the quote from the manual above: CAP (as opposed to LR CAP). I believe this is because CAP fighters ALWAYS ignore the squadron range setting and defend their base. That is why the manual says (page 153):

Although [CAP] is not a Mission that is assigned to a unit, some types
of aircraft will fly Combat Air Patrol to protect all friendly units in the fighter
unit’s hex from enemy air attack. (emphasis mine)

It seems to me that the manual is clear on this point: CAP fighters' mission is to protect their base. That being the case, the fighter unit's range setting should mean nothing to them.

What if you want to protect a hex other than your base? That is where Long Range CAP comes in. Again, from the manual (page 153):

Long Range CAP may now be performed while normal CAP is flown. [...] If you set a unit to LRCAP as a primary
mission, you may then split the units CAP duties between the unit’s base hex (CAP) and a
nearby target hex (LRCAP).

It's clear from the above that the purpose of CAP is to defend the squadron's base hex. Other a/c from the same squadron may fly off on strike, escort, or long range CAP missions, but the CAP fighters will stay home, whatever the squadron's Maximum Range setting.

Do CAP fighters NEVER stray from their base? In fact, CAP fighters may stray up to two hexes away from their base, but only under very special circumstances. Manual, page 172:

CAP may react to defend a target as far as 2 hexes away. To do so, the hex to be defended must
be attacked by more aircraft then are defending the hex, and the hex the CAP is going to come
from must be under attack by less aircraft than are currently flying CAP over that hex (checked
for each air unit, one at a time).

This last in no way negates the principle: CAP fighters stay home, whatever the Maximum Range setting for the squadron; they only stray under specific circumstances, and never more than two hexes from their base.

[dmaramba]

Please see my post above. It outlines my understanding of the way the game is coded, as reflected in the manual. My answers to your questions (in red below) are based on that understanding.

I hope someone will sandbox this some day and post back to the forum. Until I see a Combat Report that shows that CAP fighters engaged an enemy more than two hexes away from their base, I'll stick with my interpretation

Hey all,

As I understand if, if you are using a fighter squadron on Escort/CAP %, the maximum range you input determines how far either the mission will escort a strike from home base [Yes. See Ranger Joe's more recent post in this thread], AND/OR how far your CAP is allowed to "wander" from its assigned CAP location [No. CAP fighters remain over their base, regardless of the range setting].

Question 1: Am I understanding this correctly? [See my post above] Does the range determine anything for missions set on CAP [No], or does the game interpret that any fighters set to CAP are to strictly remain in their home base hex [Yes, except as noted on manual page 172]? I couldn't find anything in the manual about this. [Refer to the citations in my post above]

Question 2:And how about this scenario? I have an F4F Squadron on a carrier, I want it to both fly CAP and fly escort for a strike. I select ESCORT mission, 50% CAP. The rest of the squadron is allowed to escort, and I set the max range to 6. Does that mean that both the escort package can fly six hexes away [Again, see Ranger Joe's more recent post as well as my post], AND the CAP can wander 6 hexes from the carrier, or does the game retain the CAP at 0-hex? [The CAP will stay home, ignoring the max range setting]

Helppppppp! Hope this helps

[Nomad]

An observation. If I put a fighter squadron on 100% CAP, range 0, the unit can fly for weeks without any great increase in fatigue. I change the same squadron to range 3 the fatigue will increase quickly. They must be flying CAP out to range 3 in the second example.

[BananaConvention]

I'm really confused now. There is contradictory information in this post. One poster has the same view I do, another has solid references from the manual which state the complete opposite, and a third person with YEARS of experience has another view. I think I need to mess with the editor and see if I can put together some scenarios to test how CAP is REALLY working.

[Nomad]

I'm really confused now. There is contradictory information in this post. One poster has the same view I do, another has solid references from the manual which state the complete opposite, and a third person with YEARS of experience has another view. I think I need to mess with the editor and see if I can put together some scenarios to test how CAP is REALLY working.

Another useful video?

[RangerJoe]

CAP will not just stay over its base or TF. If you do a search, try looking up "Leaky Cap" and see if you can find anything.

[Sardaukar]

CAP can definitely appear in other hexes than base the unit is.

It is called "Leaky CAP". Often it is beneficial, giving protection for units/ships not in same hex, sometimes you don't want it.

When quoting manual, one has to remember that manual was published with original release. Lot of patches have been released after that, often changing game considerably. So, one should also consult WhatsNew.pdf and patch notes before taking all printed in manual as set in stone.

[Chris21wen]

I'm really confused now. There is contradictory information in this post. One poster has the same view I do, another has solid references from the manual which state the complete opposite, and a third person with YEARS of experience has another view. I think I need to mess with the editor and see if I can put together some scenarios to test how CAP is REALLY working.

I'll clarify. The manual is wrong. It was probably correct at the time of writing (can't remember that far back) but many changes have taken place with the air war. Just for my piece of mind I tested it but it only confirmed how I thought it worked.

Range matters for any mission.
Cap only engages up to the range set with a range of zero meaning just it's home base.
The maximum range cap will engage is 3 hexes but the range must be set to 3 for it to do so. Setting cap range to anything over 3 is pointless.
The further away cap flies the fewer a/c fly. Setting a cap target helps in how many fly in protection of that target but the other rules still apply in that the same cap will still protect other locations within 3 hexes of it's home base, numbers permitting.
If you want to protect anything >3 hexes away you need to use LRCAP but you also need to set it as a target. LRCAP behaves like cap if no target is set even if the range set is >3.

I repeat what I said in an different thread, just becasuse you give an order that does not mean it will be carried out. There are a miriad of things that can prevent, or enable, any a/c form flying they including, damage, fatigue, morale, weather, spotting, radar, leaders and not least, luck in die roles, so don't be surprised if you cap does not fly, just swear.

[Trugrit]

I'm really confused now. There is contradictory information in this post. One poster has the same view I do, another has solid references from the manual which state the complete opposite, and a third person with YEARS of experience has another view. I think I need to mess with the editor and see if I can put together some scenarios to test how CAP is REALLY working.

I'll clarify. The manual is wrong. It was probably correct at the time of writing (can't remember that far back) but many changes have taken place with the air war. Just for my piece of mind I tested it but it only confirmed how I thought it worked.

Range matters for any mission.
Cap only engages up to the range set with a range of zero meaning just it's home base.
The maximum range cap will engage is 3 hexes but the range must be set to 3 for it to do so. Setting cap range to anything over 3 is pointless.
The further away cap flies the fewer a/c fly. Setting a cap target helps in how many fly in protection of that target but the other rules still apply in that the same cap will still protect other locations within 3 hexes of it's home base, numbers permitting.
If you want to protect anything >3 hexes away you need to use LRCAP but you also need to set it as a target. LRCAP behaves like cap if no target is set even if the range set is >3.

I repeat what I said in an different thread, just becasuse you give an order that does not mean it will be carried out. There are a miriad of things that can prevent, or enable, any a/c form flying they including, damage, fatigue, morale, weather, spotting, radar, leaders and not least, luck in die roles, so don't be surprised if you cap does not fly, just swear.

I don’t know how you figure the 3 Hexes.
You can’t see that in the combat replay or report.
Must have been two bases within 3 hexes of each other?

I agree anything over 3 is pointless.

Manual says 2 Hexes.
7.4.1 Combat Air patrol
CAP may react to defend a target as far as 2 hexes away…..
The CAP that is going to fly out of their hex must have an extended range that
would reach the hex to be defended (but no more than 2 hexes away)….

Here is some discussion on cap range…..

Alfred on September 28, 2013:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p3268113

Alfred on July 12, 2013:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4#p3212794
In this thread Alfred refers to a discussion in a Bullwinkle AAR that deals with cap.

The game that Alfred is referring to is the game between Bullwinkle and 1EyedJacks:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=226527

It took me about 2 hours to find the post in the thread.
I’m still trying to learn the new Forum search engine.
The new forum search engine really scrambled the numbers from previous posts.

I had to do a little detective work. Alfred’s post above is dated July 12, 2013 so I was looking for
a Bullwinkle post in the AAR dated before July 12, 2013.

In the AAR the discussion on cap starts about here with drop tanks:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p3205517

This is the Critical Thread dated June 29, 2013:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0#p3206010
On the new forum search this is on page 78 of the AAR.

[Chris21wen]

I don’t know how you figure the 3 Hexes.
You can’t see that in the combat replay or report.
Must have been two bases within 3 hexes of each other?

I agree anything over 3 is pointless.

Manual says 2 Hexes.
7.4.1 Combat Air patrol
CAP may react to defend a target as far as 2 hexes away…..
The CAP that is going to fly out of their hex must have an extended range that
would reach the hex to be defended (but no more than 2 hexes away)….

The tests I carried were head to head. I tested starting game date 10 Dec 41 onwards using the standard scenario. The previous game days were used to turn off all activity so running a game turn from this turn did nothing.

Using Takao as Japan Base I set one Betty unit to attack Clark. I set the Warhawks in Clark Field to 50% Cap range 0 and watched the air-to-air combat. I let the game run for 5-6 days and the Cap engaged every time.

I gradually increased Japan target to be further out from Clark (0) to include Manila (1) San Fernando (2), Vigan (3) and Tuguegarao (4) hexes distant from Clark. I gradually adjusted the Warhawks range for each target from 0 to max normal range (6) and observerd.

The Warhawks never engaged anything in Tuguegarao no matter what range was set. To engage here I had to use LRCAP and set it as a target.
The Warhawks never engaged anything passed the range set for the warhawks.
All the other stuff I said in previous post.

I even threw in P-35A (9) and set bomber locations further but the results were the same. All in all I must have carried out 100+ tests Over a period of 3 Hrs.

I just run a few very quick test arounf Sigapore and got the same results. If in doubt try it youselves.

[Trugrit]

I don’t know how you figure the 3 Hexes.
You can’t see that in the combat replay or report.
Must have been two bases within 3 hexes of each other?

I agree anything over 3 is pointless.

Manual says 2 Hexes.
7.4.1 Combat Air patrol
CAP may react to defend a target as far as 2 hexes away…..
The CAP that is going to fly out of their hex must have an extended range that
would reach the hex to be defended (but no more than 2 hexes away)….

The tests I carried were head to head. I tested starting game date 10 Dec 41 onwards using the standard scenario. The previous game days were used to turn off all activity so running a game turn from this turn did nothing.

Using Takao as Japan Base I set one Betty unit to attack Clark. I set the Warhawks in Clark Field to 50% Cap range 0 and watched the air-to-air combat. I let the game run for 5-6 days and the Cap engaged every time.

I gradually increased Japan target to be further out from Clark (0) to include Manila (1) San Fernando (2), Vigan (3) and Tuguegarao (4) hexes distant from Clark. I gradually adjusted the Warhawks range for each target from 0 to max normal range (6) and observerd.

The Warhawks never engaged anything in Tuguegarao no matter what range was set. To engage here I had to use LRCAP and set it as a target.
The Warhawks never engaged anything passed the range set for the warhawks.
All the other stuff I said in previous post.

I even threw in P-35A (9) and set bomber locations further but the results were the same. All in all I must have carried out 100+ tests Over a period of 3 Hrs.

I just run a few very quick test arounf Sigapore and got the same results. If in doubt try it youselves.

I did give it a test run and you are correct.

I did it with one turn in Scenario 1. Head to Head play.
Using the 26a version.

Dec 12, 1941 and I set every air group in the Pacific Theater to stand down
with the exception of the Japanese Navy TakaoKuK-1 Betty Bomber group
located at Takao and set to launch an airfield attack on the Allied base
at Vigan, 8 hexes away. 100%, 10,000 altitude.

All Allied air groups in the Pacific Theater are standing down with the exception
of the 24th PG/20th PS located at Clark Field and set to Escort with the target set
to Vigan, 3 hexes away. The patrol level is set to 100% CAP, 10,000 altitude and
range set to the maximum 6 hexes.

The Allied group is waiting to escort an Allied bombing raid against the base hex at
Vigan which will never fly. No Allied groups, Allied Ground forces, Allied Naval
forces or Japanese ground or naval forces are located at Vigan.

Ran the Turn.

As shown below the Allied group had 1 plane airborne (over Clark Field)which was diverted
to support any CAP at Vigan and in fact that one plane intercepted the Betty bombers and
Got one kill. The rest of the group scrambled as well.

I learn something about this game every year if not every day.

I’m going to do some more testing because a CAP Bleed like this could have
some implications on high altitude sweeps

Cap Bleed 9.jpg (258.42 KiB) Viewed 1571 times