Designing tips required

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: william19k

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Status/Points/mm

[Head] (11) Dullaroy HMAX 018 [027mm]
[RT ] (19) Vicenium (W) 029 [049mm]
[CT ] (19) Dullaroy (S) 027 [039mm]
[CBT ] (13) Dullaroy (W) 017 [025mm]
[LT ] (19) Vicenium (W) 029 [049mm]
[RA ] (19) Vicenium (S) 027 [045mm]
[LA ] (19) Vicenium (W) 027 [046mm]
[LowT] (13) Vicenium (W) 028 [048mm]
[RL ] (17) Vicenium (W) 028 [048mm]
[LL ] (17) Vicenium (W) 028 [048mm]

Notice that in this titan you can remove 1mm from each of RL, LL, LOT, LA, HD without changing APs [;)] (APs are what really matter in battle) You'll save some weight, which might even allow you to increase armor in some of those 'W' locations.


BTW, HMAX is MAX armor for the Head, a special location that can only hold one slot of armor.

[Thorgrim]

Tip about "surplus" mms. When you finished adding armor to the design, choose 'all locations', then 'remove 1mm'. Those locations whose *AP* numbers decrease are already minimized. 'add 1mm' again to undo the changes, and fix only the locations that didn't decrease APs.

[william19k]

Since we lost a few posts here that may be helpfull when designing titans I figured I would re-post some...

I don't remember who said it but someone mentioned allways using Dullaroy in the head location because you only have one head slot for armor. (I think it was Sleeping Dragon).

Also I posted that having a good battle computer is better than having a good scanner. I based this assumption on statements made in the "Option for less information" thread on the main ToS board. I believe Larkin and Thorgrim pointed out several benefits of a good battlecomputer over a good scanner there. I am not sure how to post a link to a thread or I would do it here. So If you are debating on getting the level 6 scanner or the level 6 battle computer, go with the computer. If its one or the other. (Please correct me if I am wrong on this)

EDIT: I changed Rosary to Larkin as pointed out by Thorgrim[:)]

William19k

[william19k]

Just a heads-up. You do know that not having a BC incurs in a -25% penalty to your to hit chances with weapons except CC, right? And that your lock times will go through the roof?

Thorgrim

I did NOT follow the whole thread, just the last few messages. Here is a hint from a real TOS veteran. If its possible, get a BC 6 and a scanner 6. If not and you are a rookie, get a BC as good as possible and afterwards look for a good scanner. A good BC will give you a bonus for each and every shot. A scanner will only do you good if you really mange to scan the enemy. At best +8% more likely +4% or nothing at all. A good scanner is NO substitution for a good BC. A good scanner is deadly with a hero jock as it will allow him to do called shots as soon as possible. I just killed a 200t Behemoth with my hero jock piloting a Marauder. What did I do. I targeted his center torso and ignored the rest. In this specific case the scanner was more important than the BC as my to hit percentage was more than enough to do the called shots. For a less expreienced jock a good BC is much more valuable.

Larkin

Just wanted to put this info here so you dont have to sort through that whole "low info" thread. hope I am not annoying anyone by cluttering up the thread.

William19k

EDIT: changed credit from Rosary to Larkin, The info is still good though especially in a designing tips thread. Apologies to Larkin and Rosary for the mix up.

[Sleeping_Dragon]

Cool.. you saw that post [:)] Just couldn't remember what I'd said and was hoping it would *magically* reappear.

[aquietfrog]

the second quote isn't rosary. it's larkin. rosary wasn't in that thread at all. [:'(]

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: william19k

I don't remember who said it but someone mentioned allways using Dullaroy in the head location because you only have one head slot for armor. (I think it was Sleeping Dragon).

3rd post in this thread. [;)]
(BTW, I don't personally agree with the always part)

[william19k]

3rd post in this thread.
(BTW, I don't personally agree with the always part)

I was just trying to restate what he said in one of the posts that got deleted. Would you care to elaborate on why you don't agree on the "Always" ? I have been looking at printouts of the standard titans and trying to figure out why some types of armor went where. Sleeping Dragon and others in this thread have pointed out the heat reducing armor over heat regulators so I get that now.

In that Sleeping Dragon post he gave a few good thoughts and ideas about armor layouts depending on the individual preferance of the designer and the role of the titan as well, I dont remember all he said and didnt save it in my email or I would just re-post the whole thing.

I think this thread has been very helpful to me at least in refining some of my designs, thats why I was posting some of the deleted posts. And moving some info from another thread to here.

William19k

[Thorgrim]

In a very few cases in recons, *I* prefer using V in the head and save some weight that can be better used in equipment or armor somewhere else.
Currently there are 2 recons with V in the head in the database:
the Wasp, with V 13 instead of D 16, with an overall armor of 15
the Pack Hunter, with V 12 instead of D 14, with an overall armor of 13
(yep, it "only" saves 0.17t in each)

Yes, the jock should get maximum protection because it is more important than the titan. But in my book, a titan with 13 armor all over and 16 in the head is an aberration [:D]. Seriously, as long as the head can take one stray shot from *most* weapons (12 and 13 cover most of them) without armor penetration, I can live with it. 2 or 3 APs won't make too much of a difference on average in the location that is the least hit of all. Those same 2 or 3 APs might make a difference in another location that is hit way more often though.

It's a game of probabilities and damage potentials. [:)]

Notice the focal points:
* if you really need the weight
* 12/13 minimum
* optimized for lucky shots

[Thorgrim]

BTW, like I said in the post I referenced, this is all in the manual. Page 13 of the printed version, 15 in the pdf version.

[william19k]

BTW, like I said in the post I referenced, this is all in the manual. Page 13 of the printed version, 15 in the pdf version.

Agreed the general ideas are in the manual, but the manual doesnt go into the details of why you may want V in the head instead of Dullaroy, in fact on page 14 of the prited manual it says Dullaroy is the best option for the head. Your above explanation on your reason for chosing V has made me change one of my designes already since I had a bit of extra armor in the head and removing it wouldnt let me do anything else with the weight, but by changing it to V, I can use that extra weight.

Plus I dont think the manual had this tip:

Tip about "surplus" mms. When you finished adding armor to the design, choose 'all locations', then 'remove 1mm'. Those locations whose *AP* numbers decrease are already minimized. 'add 1mm' again to undo the changes, and fix only the locations that didn't decrease APs.

Which is an awsome tip that has helped me out greatly. The detail that some of you guys go into here is what is so helpful.

[Thorgrim]

Those are all "tricks", and as such not in the manual. You eventually find them out by fiddling in the factory. If you consider armor weight and space usage, it'll come naturally. Want to save weight, use V. Want max protection, use D. Space is limited, use T. Want good heat dissiaption, use M. Simple. [;)]
D is *usually* the best option for the head. Like I said, only in very rare situations do *I* consider using V. Many people here will never consider anything other than D for the head, some good designers.
The shaving off of unneeded mms, that one you learn with experience. I've been using that one for years, and saved me a lot of time streamlining the database. One additional effect, generally disregarded, is that it may make the design slightly cheaper if you cannot find anything to spend that weight on. Couple hundred bucks or so. money nevertheless [:D]

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: william19k

Also I posted that having a good battle computer is better than having a good scanner. I based this assumption on statements made in the "Option for less information" thread on the main ToS board. I believe Rosary and Thorgrim pointed out several benefits of a good battlecomputer over a good scanner there. I am not sure how to post a link to a thread or I would do it here. So If you are debating on getting the level 6 scanner or the level 6 battle computer, go with the computer. If its one or the other. (Please correct me if I am wrong on this)

Missed one there [:D]

The choice between a BC 6 and a scanner 6, it's not that linear. Depends, before anything else, what you're choosing between. If it's between a BC 1 / scanner 6 and BC 6 / scanner 1, definitely. But if it's for example BC 5 / scanner 6 and BC 6 / scanner 5, not so fast! A BC 6 in relation to a BC 5 adds 2% to your to hit, and makes locking a little faster. A scanner 6 in relation to a 5 now gives you more range (+1 hex opt and max), +1m VH, +5% to active scans and faster scan times. So, it's another game altogether [:)]
You have to consider your weapons' reload times, and your jock's skills. Support titans have longer reload times, so a slower scanner won't hurt them much. But energy titans reload fast, so a state-of-the-art scanner is probably better. If your jock has a very good scanner skill, he may not need a very fast scanner, and could use a better computer. Trade-offs.
Same deal for DCS, but not so important there.
When choosing your titan's weapons, reload times of the weapons should be an important factor. Mainly because of scan times.

[Sleeping_Dragon]

ORIGINAL: Thorgrim
(BTW, I don't personally agree with the always part)

Just for the record I didn't say always... I said 99.9% [:D]

Yes, Iceman you've made a good case and although I still don't I agree with it, it's a logical argument and within the range of 'designer's call' IMO. I make sure I never answer that question as always [:D]

[Thorgrim]

I was trying to find the post where you said always, but couldn't. Damn hacker... [:D]
So, if it's 99.9%, when do you not use D?

[william19k]

Those are all "tricks", and as such not in the manual.

Isn't that what this thread is all about? Title of thread is "Designing tips Required" [:)]

Missed one there

Ok fixed it[:D]

Just for the record I didn't say always... I said 99.9%

Once again it seems I misquoted, but I was going off of memory[:)] sorry If this lead to confusion.

But, I do think that all of your posts are full of good info for people who are having trouble with designing as I was. Keep those tips and tricks coming.

[Sleeping_Dragon]

No problem with the misquote william 19k. I wasn't even sure if I had posted that tid-bit about Dul on the head, but once you mentioned it. I remembered typing in 99.9% instead of always with Iceman in mind.

I always use max AP in Dularoy on the head (so for me... it is always) actually it's one of the first things I do, since for me it's a givien. However, there are a few situations (like Iceman discribed) where Vicnium is a close call. For me it's not quite close enough, other designer's are free to make the judgement that it is close enough and have a reasonable justification for it.

For me... my jocks will take every single AP they can get... I've walked away from too many battles with only 1 AP (internal+external) left in the head.... titans don't need sunroofs

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: william19k

Those are all "tricks", and as such not in the manual.

Isn't that what this thread is all about? Title of thread is "Designing tips Required" [:)]

yep, that's why they're in here and not in the manual [;)]

[william19k]

I actually liked several things Thorgrim said about head armor. I have a titan, actually one with the armor scheme I posted above, where after shaving AP here and there I found myself with 1mm of D extra in the head. Due to other factors, like limited slots and other weight factors, I couldn't really do anything with the weight saved by "shaving" that 1mm. Using a different type of armor I could probably make the weight saved into something useful.

Then I read what he posted about just leaving it off to save on titan cost. Now to you veterans this might have seemed odvious, but to me it was something I hadn't thought about when designing titans.

So actually both ideas were quite helpful. BTW I chose to stick to D and leave the titan a bit lighter than before.

[Thorgrim]

So, considering that if the engine blows your jock dies, shouldn't you *always* have your engine location maxed out? [&:] [;)]

BTW, 99.9%, that's 1 in every 1000. Is that designs, or recons (that's where this applies)? I think it's a "little" more than that... either way. IMO.