[RESOLVED] Why does the SM-3 have such a hard time finding a intercept for ballistic missiles?

[Mickeys91]

I have been screwing around with the Patriot, THAAD and SM3. While not too much trouble with the Patriot and THAAD which had pretty good interception success based off where the incoming missile was landing and where my SAMs were placed. BUT, so far I have had 0 luck with the SM-3 (specifically the blk IIA) with the 1300 nm range. I'm not too familiar with ballistic trajectory interceptions but from my understand it is important to detect the launch early, hold a track and attempt a intercept during the mid course or where the object is on the descent course back toward the ground so your SAMs have enough time to get to altitude and intercept point.

I have tried the AEGIS ashore, US/Japanese cruisers and even the Israel Arrow 3 system that hold similar weapons. I even spammed the units in different locations from launch of enemy missile to the location of impact. No matter what I keep getting the "Target will impact before Intercept is feasible". Im also pretty ignorant on Ballistic EW radar but so far I have been just using the SBX 1 sea based radar to detect and hold a track on the enemy missile. So what exactly am I doing wrong? do I need a more powerful radar? do I need to set my SAMs better? (even though I pretty much spammed them at one point between the enemy missile launch and impact point)

[Craigkn]

Which ballistic missile are you testing with? Reading the wiki pages on both the SM-3 and the SM-6 - the SM-3 seems suited for mid-course targeting, while the SM-6 is suited for terminal phase. I tested launching Kh-47M2 Kinzhal's at (as in targeting) a BMD configured SAG and I think most of the intercepts came from the SM-6. It would be interesting to test a target well behind the SAG, which would keep the Hypersonic missile still in its boost/glide phase as it passed the ships, not terminal. I imagine in that scenario that the SM-3 would do better.

[Mickeys91]

Which ballistic missile are you testing with? Reading the wiki pages on both the SM-3 and the SM-6 - the SM-3 seems suited for mid-course targeting, while the SM-6 is suited for terminal phase. I tested launching Kh-47M2 Kinzhal's at (as in targeting) a BMD configured SAG and I think most of the intercepts came from the SM-6. It would be interesting to test a target well behind the SAG, which would keep the Hypersonic missile still in its boost/glide phase as it passed the ships, not terminal. I imagine in that scenario that the SM-3 would do better.

I was using a mix of MRBM, IRBM and a few ICBM from Russia, N korea and Iran. I finally had one success launch and intercept with the Sm-3 but it was on the descent phase and only when I put my ship almost right next to the Island where the enemy missile was going to hit its target. So at least I know it does work but I am having 0 successful of mid flight interceptions(which these missiles are designed to do). No launch and just keep saying "Target will impact before Intercept is feasible". My other issue is with some of the ICBMs my radars keep losing track. I tried many different EW ballistic radars the US offers but none are able to find the missiles when they are high in the air. I assume this is a job for satellites?

Basically I am attempting to replay a scenario from this video which was an apparent real test in 2020 by the USN. You can see the ICBM which traveled more than 4000nm away from target was intercepted mid course by a SM-3 from a US destroyer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYb-sm24JUk

[thewood1]

I'd suggest searching the forum on ABM. This is along the lines of multiple discussions over the last few years.

[Mickeys91]

I'd suggest searching the forum on ABM. This is along the lines of multiple discussions over the last few years.

I did. There is good discussion on ABM topics but not much on specifics such as SM-3. Most of the things I read are generalization of how interceptions should work which I did but really not much luck. Also issue with the beta constantly updating most of the older tactics do not work the same since the coding for ABM is usually updated. I do remember playing a mission a year or so ago and the weapons working fine but I assume that was an older trajectory coding.

[tylerblakebrandon]

What other sensors do you have other than the shooter's onboard sensors. I think you mentioned SBX-1. Early detection and tracking is key, Maximize the number of sensors you have to work with. Try adding a RC-135 Cobra Eye and some SBIRS early warning satellites.

[Mickeys91]

What other sensors do you have other than the shooter's onboard sensors. I think you mentioned SBX-1. Early detection and tracking is key, Maximize the number of sensors you have to work with. Try adding a RC-135 Cobra Eye and some SBIRS early warning satellites.

Tried those and they dont even seem to detect the missiles in flight. Could be me but have been trying almost everything so I assume it could be a issue with ABM? maybe some works needs to be done not sure. I also seem to have a issue with EW radar for ABM not even detecting any of the ICBMs when they get to extreme high altitudes.

[DWReese]

Tried those and they dont even seem to detect the missiles in flight. Could be me but have been trying almost everything so I assume it could be a issue with ABM? maybe some works needs to be done not sure. I also seem to have a issue with EW radar for ABM not even detecting any of the ICBMs when they get to extreme high altitudes.

In my experience, the SM-3 and SM-6 seem to work fine against the DF-21 and DF-26. If a platform like the SeaBase SBX is present, it will generally detect the missiles as the launch and continue tracking them until they reach space level. At that point they will lose contact. My target ship, a US cruiser with the SM-3 and SM-6 is about 800 miles away. As the missile descends, the SBX reacquires them. The cruiser picks them up about 100 miles away and begins shooting. The SM-3 seems to hit and destroy the incoming missiles as they drop (terminal phase). If a missile makes through, the SM-6 fires and kills any stragglers. So, it appears that the SM-3 and SM-6 are really designed to attack in the terminal phase.

The one question that I have is why would the SM-3 (E-version) have a range of 1300 miles if it really only shots in the terminal phase? I have not seen any reason it do anything else. I'm sure that there is a way to make that work, but I am quite happy with the way that it works right now.

[Mickeys91]

Tried those and they dont even seem to detect the missiles in flight. Could be me but have been trying almost everything so I assume it could be a issue with ABM? maybe some works needs to be done not sure. I also seem to have a issue with EW radar for ABM not even detecting any of the ICBMs when they get to extreme high altitudes.

In my experience, the SM-3 and SM-6 seem to work fine against the DF-21 and DF-26. If a platform like the SeaBase SBX is present, it will generally detect the missiles as the launch and continue tracking them until they reach space level. At that point they will lose contact. My target ship, a US cruiser with the SM-3 and SM-6 is about 800 miles away. As the missile descends, the SBX reacquires them. The cruiser picks them up about 100 miles away and begins shooting. The SM-3 seems to hit and destroy the incoming missiles as they drop (terminal phase). If a missile makes through, the SM-6 fires and kills any stragglers. So, it appears that the SM-3 and SM-6 are really designed to attack in the terminal phase.

The one question that I have is why would the SM-3 (E-version) have a range of 1300 miles if it really only shots in the terminal phase? I have not seen any reason it do anything else. I'm sure that there is a way to make that work, but I am quite happy with the way that it works right now.

Ive had somewhat success as you say with the missile descending. Where did you put your ships relative to the enemy missile target area? I assume in the pathway and under where the missile would be coming from. I have also been doing some testing with the iron dome and Ive also had very limited success with that system as well.

I am not sure on your other question but as I said I posted the video in my previous comment of a animated SM-3 intercept that is based on a real life USN test from 2020. In the video it shows the intercept happening around mid course of the missile around half way between launch and target area. (Not sure what kind of missile it was but it says ICBM)

[thewood1]

Keep in mind that each missile in the US arsenal is built for a specific type of missile (SRBM, IRBM, MRBM, ICBM, etc.) and very specific engagement window. Thats why I pointed out the search. Some of that is documented in a couple threads.

[Mickeys91]

Keep in mind that each missile in the US arsenal is built for a specific type of missile (SRBM, IRBM, MRBM, ICBM, etc.) and very specific engagement window. Thats why I pointed out the search. Some of that is documented in a couple threads.

Trust me I probably spent 6 hours the past 2 days going through almost every type of ballistic missile to guided rocket because It was really bothering me lol. Out of many tests I only got 2 successful launches (which means its working) but so far I could not get it work as it is claimed to work (which is MRBM mid course intercept from the few sources I read and watched videos on)

Regarding search bar I did use it but could not find anything regarding these types of intercepts. I used what info I could and tried it but no successful on my part. As other guy said these have a 1300 mile radius so doesn't make much sense that they can only be used in the last few 100 mile or so during terminal phase.

[thewood1]

A couple things to pay attention to on the SM-3 is minimum range, exoatmospheric window, and vertical scan limitation on the SPY-1 radar. In the ABM threads, I posted a couple scenarios that show all SM-3 from both Aegis Ashore and a DDG intercepting BMs. Again, the geometry is very narrow, but it will do it. IIRC, the minimum range issue can generate the unable to intercept type message sometimes.

[Dimitris]

The "problem" with SM-3 is well illustrated in this still from a LM THAAD-ER promo video, which visualizes the engagement envelopes of different BMD layers:



(Aegis = SM-3 in this case)

Because it is a strictly exo-atmospheric system (the hit-to-kill bus cannot manouver & track in the atmosphere), and because it is geared towards intercepting longer-ranged (ie. much faster incoming) targets than PAC-3 & THAAD, you must shoot early - otherwise the intercept point will be within the atmosphere (ie. cannot fire at all).

To shoot early, you must detect and track really early. This means an elaborate theater- or even global-scale detection and tracking network (typically both satellites and ground/sea-based radars) to provide a fire control-grade track as early as possible.

[Mickeys91]

To shoot early, you must detect and track really early. This means an elaborate theater- or even global-scale detection and tracking network (typically both satellites and ground/sea-based radars) to provide a fire control-grade track as early as possible.

Yes that is what I had as you mention. My satellites and sea based X band had lock entire time(from launch to target area) on a DF-21 that I fired at my carrier and another few different variations of IRBMs and ICBMs that I fired further at some targets. Neither my SM-3s or GMD(which I put a bunch all along the missiles pathway) had a chance to fire off with the "Target will impact before Intercept is feasible" 95% of the time until the end where one of my ships fired a SM-3 and SM-6s maybe the last 10-15 seconds(and missed) before missile struck target.

[Dimitris]

If you suspect a bug, post a suitable save (in this case, suitable = very early in the detection/engagement sequence) and we can have a look when we get back.

[Mickeys91]

If you suspect a bug, post a suitable save (in this case, suitable = very early in the detection/engagement sequence) and we can have a look when we get back.

Okay out of town atm but this weekend Ill attempt to make a quick neat scenario since most of my "test" scenarios were very messy with units all over the place. Appreciate the replies!

[Gunner98]

To shoot early, you must detect and track really early. This means an elaborate theater- or even global-scale detection and tracking network (typically both satellites and ground/sea-based radars) to provide a fire control-grade track as early as possible.

Could you elaborate on the sensor systems needed, particularly for space based tracking? I struggle with selecting the right satellites at the best of times but would this be a better job for geostationary ones, which would give real problems in the polar regions.

[maverick3320]

To shoot early, you must detect and track really early. This means an elaborate theater- or even global-scale detection and tracking network (typically both satellites and ground/sea-based radars) to provide a fire control-grade track as early as possible.

Could you elaborate on the sensor systems needed, particularly for space based tracking? I struggle with selecting the right satellites at the best of times but would this be a better job for geostationary ones, which would give real problems in the polar regions.

Agreed, I'd like to see this as well. I've read in other threads that without a THAAD or comparable system, SM-3/SM-6 have no chance versus DF-26. I'm currently playing Air Sea Battle (Chains of War scenario 11) and Chinese DF-26s are picking off my ships one by one. Without a THAAD it seems like US ships are a sitting duck, as my SM-3s and SM-6s refuse to fire as the DF-26s are apparently moving too fast to intercept, even when heading straight at my ships.

[thewood1]

I have a scenario I'm building right now where SM-6s are great at local defense against SRBMs But the SM3s never seem to have the right geometry for any BM. Every now and then, I hit the sweet spot. But it seems I can never reproduce the same set up in another scenario.

Seems to model real life way too closely.

[Mickeys91]

Hey everyone apologize I have been away so could not reply or set up a scenario as I mentioned I was going to do. But today I noticed in the new 1277.1 update there was a "FIXED: #14832: Space-search sensors not detecting ballistic Missiles". So I figured give it a shot. So far I have amazing results. The GBIs and SM3s have had much more successful launches and intercepts at a MUCH longer range then previous. So I feel the issue to the prior patch was the Radar coding for the game being able to hold a lock on the enemy missiles. Id like to thank devs for looking into this and Im sure some more adjustments might take place but so far its working well.

Also, @thewood I have so far set up a scenario where I had a 5000nm range ICBM with a speed of 12000 kts (have not tested the shorter range slower missiles yet) firing from islands close to Guam to 4 different targets in Nevada/California area. I set up a bunch of EW ballistic radars at random areas and X-band surface ship. They held a lock the entire time (this was the issue I had in previous patch of them not being able to detect the missile once deep into space). I first I tested the GBIs and set them up at random areas in Cali and Nevada. They all did pretty well and launched as the incoming missiles from its downward trajectory from space. (I'm not sure how realistic this is for ranges but I trust the devs sources on this from what they can work with). I also tried the SM-3(both on and offshore AEGIS systems). The SM-3s also did very well and launched at their respectful 1000+ nm distance (which was not the case prior).