sIG33 No indirect fire?

[AmmoSgt]

Actually several SP infantry support type weapons have indirect fire capability and are not modeled as indirect fire in the game .. among US units with that problem are the M-8 Scott, the Amtrac's with the 75mm . A couple of the Halftrack SP Hows (T-30 GMC's ect) have come in both indirect and seperate direct fire models in the game ... M-16 Quad 50's have been used in Indirect fire mode as described in various web pages I have posted on different threads .... infact most heavy Machineguns in WW1 had special sites for high angle fire to allow them to use plunging fire against trenches , and some early war systems in WW2 were designed with this ability , not knowing that WW2 would be so different , making the doctrine somewhat Obsolete for MG's ...
Most the "infantry guns" are in fact just old WW1 field artilery that didn't have a capacity for high angle of fire due to the mount , which was due to the doctrine , which was based on the ability of the sights and manual computations to acxhieve usable accuracy back at the turn of the century ...
This proabaly most noticeable in Naval Guns and the increase in ranges after 1930 era refits as the angles that they could elevate were increased in refits on their main turrets ..
As steel quality and the ability to compute variables need for accurate long range indirect fire improved, the concept of artillery changed and complicated the mounts .. IIRC the French 75mm main claim to fame, is that it was among the first, if not the first, to have a recoil system, that allowed the gun to fire without completely relaying the Gun between shots ...
Given the multiple versions of such Arty systems as the T-30 GMC, I was wondering if there might be some game engine limit to modeling an indirect gun having both aproximately correct accuracy in the indirect fire role, and then still maintaining a reasonable modeling of accuracy in direct fire ? Towed Guns of many nations such as the British 25 pdr's have direct fire ammo ( some version of AP or HEAT) and yet manage indirect fire with some accuracy ...and have the "inteligence " in the game to only fire HE type ammo indirect ...so i suspect it is more a game designer preference thing ... maybe somebody can answer this that has inside knowledge of some of the choices in modeling units in the game .. the M4 Sherman CS versions and some of the Brit CS tanks, I do believe, had this ability as well ...any enlightenment would be apreciated... The Pricing for the identical gun and vehicle combo on such units as the T-30 GMC is quite different between direct fire and indirect fire versions ..with the indirect fire version being much much higher.. I assume this is part of the effort to restrict and handicap the Impact of Artillery in this game ... such as not allowing the German 88mm to fire indirect , which I doubt there is little controversy about it's actual ability to do so in reality .

[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

[rcread]

Many, mant weapons were capable of indirect fire that aren't given that ability in the game. Even tanks can, and I have read accounts of US tanks firing indirect in Korea. Modern military MG doctrine inludes the use of MGs on SF (sustained fire) mounts for indirect fire.
The limitations with high-velocity weapons (MGs, tanks, and 88s) are in range - they are severally restricted in their MINIMUM range, by the flat plane of their trajectories. But 88s WERE used as indirect artillery, as were 75mm AT guns. The Russian 76mm AT guns were actually artillery pieces, designed for indirect fire, but dual-purpose.
Even the early StuGs retained their indirect fire sights, and since they were crewed by artillerymen, they certainly knew how to use them. But, they were far more effective firing direct, and German doctrine did not allow the artillery commander to gain control of them except in extraordinary circumstances.
As to the sIGs, the ground-mount versions definately were indirect capable, and since the SP versions were simply the same gun, in its entirety, plopped onto a tracked chassis, they were too. However, since these guns were controlled by the infantry, and since their ammo supply was usually very limited, they were generally used direct; indirect artillery burns up ammunition at such a fantastic rate that the infantry supply system wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand. Besides, used indirect, a sIG could usually hit the target by the third or fourth round - a statistical impossibility with indirect fire. So, they were rarely used indirect, and the SP versions were intended to protect the crews from small arms fire so they could do their jobs better, not differently.

[AmmoSgt]

Tanks lack both indrect fire sighting/ploting equipment and typically crew training .. in Korea you will see they had to fire from prepared ramps and were given firing settings from special teams that had to convert the gun balistics for weapons not normally used for indirect fire and had no firing tables ...this was only done because tanks were of limited use in their typical usage as maneuver elements ..and they didn't have much else to do ..chalk it up to yankee ingenuity ..
the Units I mentioned are ones that had sight/ploting gear and precalculated firing tables only requiring a mission and a firing point and estabishing communication with FDC elements .. but even this required pulling them off any DS missions and took some planing and cordination and had to use elements not otherwise organic to units assigned by TO&E to DS missions

[tracer]

Originally posted by Warrior:


Funny you should ask! I just had one firing at a halftrack and the infantry squad in the hex behind it took severe casualties and retreated even further away.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

After you posted this I decided to see for myself; though it was late I whipped up a generated battle (forgot how much fun they can be). 6/41, German defend vs Soviets, visibility 16, had about 1000pts to spend. First thing I had to do was disable rarity; guess there weren't that many 150mm IG's and I couldn't get more than a pair with rarity on and I wanted 4...bought a couple platoons of FJ, and MG's, a couple 88's, 1/2 dozen 28mm FJ ATG, 4 75mm howtz's and a few snipers. Only motorized unit was 3 MMG motorcycles for recon...no armor at all.

Besides the IGs, 88s and MGs (and a couple of the 28mm ATGs)the rest of my force could have been sitting there drinking schnapps for all it mattered. Every time an IG fired you'd see 3-6 casualty report boxes pop up as units around the target got chewed up too. Units I couldn't even see were popping smoke and retreating...even had a few disperse after taking 7-8 casualties on first contact. As usual the AI concentrated almost all the return fire at the 88s and IGs, but since they were entrenched the only loss was 1 crewman from an abandoned IG, and even they recovered and remanned the gun a couple turns later. Wound up with a decisive victory after 6 or 7 turns...guess that answered my question of how effective IGs are with the new combat model

One side note: I'd never seen a T-27 before, but the AI chose a bunch for its force...maybe because I had no armor?

[sinner]

What about the Infantry 75mm gun? (German)

It cames with the Motorized Infantry companies.

Can you use it as an indirect gun? If yes, perfect.

If no, why? And, how can I make it an indirect fire gun? (what part of the OOB needs to be edited?


Thank youin advance.

[Mai Thai]

To Sinner from the Prairy:

sorry but the 75mm inf. gun (German)that comes with the Motorized Infantry companies is for direct fire only, so you can't use it for indirect fire. But you can upgrade it to the 75mm Howitzer that can also be used for indirect fire.
Bye

[Paul Vebber]

Any unit classed Howitzer (should really be "on board arty" or mortar (of various types) can fire indirect (as can some vehicles).

We limited the "indirect fire" capability to those artillery types that were used for "spotter corrected fire" on a routine basis. The players Borg like knowledge of exactlywhere individual enemy units are makes it too easy to abuse in other cases.

In Combat Leader with full fog of war this will be more dificult to ascertain, and we divide units into those capable of "indirect fire" (though minimum range makes this tactically dificult) and "call for fire" capabable. So you will be able to use MGs to fire indirectly if you really want, but its affect will be more area denial (ihibiting movement) than casuing siginificant casualties and suppression - since you are "shooting in the blind"

[RockinHarry]

Hey..try using the "Sig33 on PzI" as bunker busters at ranges of 3-5 and tell what you notice!? (..bunkers without PAK of course )

...against entrenched infantry they do almost nothing. But once they leave their entrenchments...

_______
Harry