vichy declaration and ships in port

[jjdenver]

Rule says:
"Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French
CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan
French port"

Does this mean if Corsica is part of Vichy it counts as a port?

Does it also mean that if you have a 2 range ship in WM and no med metro ports are held by France at Vichy declaration (let's say only Marseilles is held) that the ships are forced to RTB to Oran (or some other colonial port) and Vichy roll is modified by 2 as a result?

[paulderynck]

The game should be coded per the July 2009 FAQ which clarified that Corsica doesn't cut it.

Ships must return to base to ports in range and if the BBs can't all get into ports in the French home country before Vichy is declared then the penalty applies. If the ships are at sea then the penalty applies. Forced return to base comes after territorial control has been determined and if ports are equidistant, the player installing Vichy decides.

[Angeldust2]

The game should be coded per the July 2009 FAQ which clarified that Corsica doesn't cut it.

The game is coded like this.

[Joseignacio]

The game should be coded per the July 2009 FAQ which clarified that Corsica doesn't cut it.

Ships must return to base to ports in range and if the BBs can't all get into ports in the French home country before Vichy is declared then the penalty applies. If the ships are at sea then the penalty applies. Forced return to base comes after territorial control has been determined and if ports are equidistant, the player installing Vichy decides.

We have always played that the BB and CV at sea return to base before you declare Vichy. And the game sequence seems to agree with us:

3.1 Sequence of play
The sequence of play in a turn is:
A. REINFORCEMENT STAGE
B. LENDING RESOURCES STAGE
C. INITIATIVE STAGE
D. ACTION STAGE
Repeat D1 through D3 until the action stage ends.
D1 Determine weather
D2 First side’s impulse
Every major power on the first side performs these steps:
D2.1 Declare war
D2.2 Choose action
Choose either a pass, a naval, an air, a land or a
combined action.
D2.3 Perform actions
The major powers that didn’t pass perform these
steps in this order (their action choice will limit what
they can do ~ see action limits table):
(a) Port attacks
(b) Naval air missions
(...)
(p) Air rebases
(q) Reorganisation
D2.4 End of action
Roll to end the action stage. If it doesn’t end,
advance the impulse marker the number of spaces
shown on the weather chart for the current weather
roll. If it ends, move on to stage E - the end of turn.
D3 Second side’s impulse
If the action stage didn’t end, repeat the steps in D2 for the
second side. If the action stage doesn’t end after the second
side’s impulse, go back to D1.
E. END OF TURN STAGE
Both sides perform these steps in this order:
E1 Partisans
E2 US entry
E3 Return to base
E4 Final reorganisation
E5 Production
E6 Intelligence (option 63)
E7 Peace
E7.1 Conquest
E7.2 Allied minor support
E7.3 Mutual peace
E7.4 Vichy declaration
E7.5 Liberation
E7.6 Surrender
E8 Victory check (& option 30: factory destruction)

About Corsica, it may have been clarified, but it seems clear enough to me in the RAW:

17. Vichy France
(...)
17.1 Creation
(...)
If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided
into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still
French controlled) and Occupied France. A

[Angeldust2]

Your posting of the regular sequence of play does not contradict Paul's statement, which refers to the procedure of when and how French naval units at sea are to be handled in the case of Vichy declaration. And as Paul has already dutifully replied to the original question, Corsica does NOT qualify as a Metropolitan port in order to avoid the -2 drm by MWIF.

[Joseignacio]

Partial Disagreement:

1 If Corsica is Metropolitan Vichy, they are in a Metropolitan French port :

~ Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are
not currently in a Metropolitan French port.

Maybe Harry contradicted his own ruling, as usual. But, well, it is clear in the Clarifications that he amended this, so in this case he solved it in a makeshift way and it works in this edition as Paul says (and the worst is that I knew it but couldnt remember it earlier). However in WIFCE he has corrected that error, that he had called clarification.

Q17.1-1 17.1 Does the Vichy France home nation include Corsica?
No, Corsica is a territory. The Vichy French administration group that includes
the Vichy French home nation also includes Corsica. Date 20/01/2009
17.1: If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France.

2 This game has a sequence to follow. This is basic in it.
First you need to RTB your ships.
Then you can declare Vichy. Since you have been able to RTB, only if you prefer to leave them at sea and not RTB (to make a gift to your opponent of some or all the FF possible countries) you would suffer the penalty.

So they only count if you select to have them at sea and get the penalty, which is 99,99% of the times stupid.

[Joseignacio]

Here is how it is solved in the newest edition (which is not MWIF's anyway, for those who dont know about WIF)

Sin título2.png (64.04 KiB) Viewed 922 times

Sin título.png (42.66 KiB) Viewed 922 times

[paulderynck]

Of course if you think Vichy will be declared, then you should return the ships. But you don't know for sure it will be declared. In games that have reached this stage, France is very unlikely to be able to take a naval to get the ships back out. With the French fleet out of the picture, the Axis might consider trying for an incomplete conquest, rather than declaring Vichy.

[Joseignacio]

Of course if you think Vichy will be declared, then you should return the ships. But you don't know for sure it will be declared. In games that have reached this stage, France is very unlikely to be able to take a naval to get the ships back out. With the French fleet out of the picture, the Axis might consider trying for an incomplete conquest, rather than declaring Vichy.

Yes, you are right in this, but I dont mean making a naval action, but simply RTB (your BBs at sea, obviously not possible if you are such a newby to have them at a port that is not Metropolitan) at turn's end if you think they will go for Vichy, before the step of Vichy declaration.

The Vichy RTB is later on, and only for those still at sea at Vichy phase (which is later than the normal RTB phase).