Noumea gambit opening

[ncc1701e]

There might be some restrictions already, not sure.

There is none and I am not sure this is needed.

I build up port is a pretty good option. I think even in WitP it isn't a large port at the start of the game. But then the Japanese go after the other large port instead in the area.

What might be better is to put port activation restrictions like I have in the game for other ports.

Port activation restriction is too much from my point of view. The goal of the Japanese player is indeed to try to stop the South Pacific convoy lane. The best way to achieve this is to land in the Santa Cruz, the New Hebrides or New Caledonia in any particular order. And then to defend these islands.

And, the best way to defend these islands and to attack the South Pacific convoy lane is to upgrade the ports of Espirito Santo and Noumea.

Adding more port activation restriction is denying the Japanese player the right to try this. They can try to win doing this. Suva and Noumea are victory objectives after all.

No, the solution is to reduce the port level of Noumea to 3 at start. And to remove the engineer specialty to the US unit located there. Add Noumea to the port upgradeable. Keep the Japanese fleet near Palau untouched.

The Japanese wants to do a port blockade of Noumea on turn 1. They can.
They want to invade Noumea on turn 3, they can.

But, then, they will have to bring an engineer unit to upgrade the port of Noumea if they want to do it.
With port level 3 in Noumea, the only nearest base to repair their ships is Rabaul.

1942 will be much more entertaining and challenging for both sides doing this. Because, Allies will have difficulties as well to maintain large fleets around. The US unit in Noumea without engineer specialty won't start to upgrade anything at game start. Allies will have to wait until mid February 1942.

And I am not worried about Australia.

Thanks

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Noumea port level.JPG (182.91 KiB) Viewed 1017 times

[stjeand]

I am more of the mindset of restricting port supply...

Sorry but the Japanese could not supply Noumea without taking most of the area...it would just be transport suicide...

[ncc1701e]

I am more of the mindset of restricting port supply...

Sorry but the Japanese could not supply Noumea without taking most of the area...it would just be transport suicide...

What do you mean by "most of the area"? If the Japanese are in Guadalcanal, don't you think they can supply Espirito Santo or Noumea?

At which stage do we limit ourselves? There are already plenty of restrictions.

[stjeand]

What do you mean by "most of the area"? If the Japanese are in Guadalcanal, don't you think they can supply Espirito Santo or Noumea?

At which stage do we limit ourselves? There are already plenty of restrictions.

I mean chain supply and no they could not supply Noumea if they are in Guadalcanal.

SO many places that planes could be stationed they would lose all their ships to them.

The thoughts I had was they need to have a supply chain to each island to make transporting safe for their shipping.

Look at the islands and think of them like a land bridge. Without that...shipping is at risk.

From Henderson field to say Espirito Santo to Noumea.

If they don't have those...then no supplies just could not safely be delivered.

[ago1000]

@NCC1701E

The Allies could pray for rain in turn 2 and 3. (50% of the time).

Not sure if this would be a viable defence but did you try moving the Noumea unit off the port one hex. That would allow you to air supply it for the next turns.(Not sure why a Naval blockade prevents air supply????)
Also move two air units(1 from Aus, 1 from Fiji) to nearby islands to hammer the landing troops on turn 2 with airstrikes. This would reduce effectiveness. (Check the effectiveness in the pic below of the IJN unit at start of T3)
The US troops stationed at Noumea can handle the initialial barrage of the landing. This would force the IJN navy to add a considerable amount of resources for the effort. (Like the pic where you surround the port and maybe land more troops).
As long as you can air supply the unit(indefinely) and hammer the invading unit you should be able to last a while (and maybe hold Noumea) that it would hurt the IJN.(in oil and resources). By turn 3-6 the Allies should then be able to reinforce it safely into the open port hex.

My solution would be to give the Noumea unit 2 more strength points and have it ungarrisoned.(ie The Norway Fix-WPE) or simply ungarrison it.

This reminds me of that magazine that would give you a situation or problem and you had to come up with the best solution. You could send in your answers and possibly be published the next issue. God I loved that magazine but for the life of me cannot remember it's name. It's no longer published.

[stjeand]

The above does work...to a point.
The unit still gets destroyed in one attack.
There is no way to prevent this even with air supply.

Add to that so long as the Japanese have 3 naval units next to the port the Allies can not move a unit in to the port.

And the Kido Butai will likely be in Rabaul at this point so moving many US ships down to support Noumea is a huge risk.
But this could work out in the Allies favor...if they send down their 2 CVs...but it could also cost the Allies both of those.

Rain is the only way to hold it...and even that may only provide one more turn.
And even with this I think only Heavy rain will save them.

[ago1000]

The above does work...to a point.
The unit still gets destroyed in one attack.
There is no way to prevent this even with air supply.

Add to that so long as the Japanese have 3 naval units next to the port the Allies can not move a unit in to the port.

And the Kido Butai will likely be in Rabaul at this point so moving many US ships down to support Noumea is a huge risk.
But this could work out in the Allies favor...if they send down their 2 CVs...but it could also cost the Allies both of those.

Rain is the only way to hold it...and even that may only provide one more turn.
And even with this I think only Heavy rain will save them.

(Messed on turns so I had to edit it)
The only chance the unit could be destroyed is on turn 3 [Jan 4th](rarely happens though but I never tried bringing in more bombardment to bring up the odds, that experiment will be tonight). I have never had it destroyed on turn 2 (Dec 21-invasion day] (from the pick NCC1701E provided moving the invading fleet forward). What you don't see in the pic is I took a fleet from Pearl (1 BB, 1CA, 3 DD-undamaged naval battle groups from pearl), together with the unit from Pago Pago (all in raider mode to break the blockade).
In raider mode you can get the unit to the port with a DD screening but will need to break the blockade. Keeping the remaining fleet in raider mode. Place it next to the port. On turn 4[Jan 4] the blockade is removed and you can land the troops from Pago Pago. Give er a try. The Allies may get a bleeding nose(maybe or maybe not depends on if fleet breaking the blockade is found when in raider mode).

The problem I have is when the Axis surrounds the port and I can't take up a space to break the blockade. If the Allied fleet could be two hexes away to break the blockade, Noumea wouldn't fall. Hence my solution of giving it a little more strength and ungarrison the unit. (IMO-surrounding the port is gamey) No possiblility of it falling at all on turn 3 unless IJN unloads 2 marine units.

The Kido Butai cannot be fully supplied by turn 3[Jan 4th-max 5 CVs supplied]. Furthermore, many of the combat groups will be low on supply by turn 4[Jan 18] and burning oil a bunch.

If its falling in turn 2[Dec 21] then there must be more units added or I'm missing something. If you are talking about it falling after turn 4[Jan 18], then it will depend on the Axis how badly they want it and what they are willing to pay for it. Then restriction makes sense as the supply chain is too long otherwise.

Appendum:
Did some fun testing today. With the circle around the port, the US forces could hold out at most to Feb. 1. No way for the US to break the blockade. This also has the potential to become a decisive battle early on. I stand corrected, using the island chain near by, you can resupply the Kido Butai (minus 1 ship-CA) and have them into the action by turn 3.
+1 stjeand - restrictions are making sense if this is an issue since the port can be encircled.

[ncc1701e]

Not sure if this would be a viable defence but did you try moving the Noumea unit off the port one hex. That would allow you to air supply it for the next turns.(Not sure why a Naval blockade prevents air supply????)

Naval blockade does not prevent air supply. I did one.

Also move two air units(1 from Aus, 1 from Fiji) to nearby islands to hammer the landing troops on turn 2 with airstrikes. This would reduce effectiveness. (Check the effectiveness in the pic below of the IJN unit at start of T3);

These planes are low on strength and both Australia and New Zealand are low on oil after few strikes. Main problem is strength of these planes are not enough to sink anything.

My solution would be to give the Noumea unit 2 more strength points and have it ungarrisoned.(ie The Norway Fix-WPE) or simply ungarrison it.

Japan is coming with an army 30/30 plus plenty of shore bombardment...

[ncc1701e]

The only chance the unit could be destroyed is on turn 3 [Jan 4th](rarely happens though but I never tried bringing in more bombardment to bring up the odds, that experiment will be tonight). I have never had it destroyed on turn 2 (Dec 21-invasion day] (from the pick NCC1701E provided moving the invading fleet forward). What you don't see in the pic is I took a fleet from Pearl (1 BB, 1CA, 3 DD-undamaged naval battle groups from pearl), together with the unit from Pago Pago (all in raider mode to break the blockade).
In raider mode you can get the unit to the port with a DD screening but will need to break the blockade. Keeping the remaining fleet in raider mode. Place it next to the port. On turn 4[Jan 4] the blockade is removed and you can land the troops from Pago Pago. Give er a try. The Allies may get a bleeding nose(maybe or maybe not depends on if fleet breaking the blockade is found when in raider mode).

The problem I have is when the Axis surrounds the port and I can't take up a space to break the blockade. If the Allied fleet could be two hexes away to break the blockade, Noumea wouldn't fall. Hence my solution of giving it a little more strength and ungarrison the unit. (IMO-surrounding the port is gamey) No possiblility of it falling at all on turn 3 unless IJN unloads 2 marine units.

The Kido Butai cannot be fully supplied by turn 3[Jan 4th-max 5 CVs supplied]. Furthermore, many of the combat groups will be low on supply by turn 4[Jan 18] and burning oil a bunch.

If its falling in turn 2[Dec 21] then there must be more units added or I'm missing something. If you are talking about it falling after turn 4[Jan 18], then it will depend on the Axis how badly they want it and what they are willing to pay for it. Then restriction makes sense as the supply chain is too long otherwise.

Appendum:
Did some fun testing today. With the circle around the port, the US forces could hold out at most to Feb. 1. No way for the US to break the blockade. This also has the potential to become a decisive battle early on. I stand corrected, using the island chain near by, you can resupply the Kido Butai (minus 1 ship-CA) and have them into the action by turn 3.
+1 stjeand - restrictions are making sense if this is an issue since the port can be encircled.

Exactly, the problem is that Japanese can surround the port with all the ships they want. Allies have no ship around the first three turns (only 2 or 3 ships). They don't have the power to sink a ship in Fleet mode. They will get destroy right away. As such, they can't break the blockade.

IMO-surrounding the port is gamey

I did a proposal here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9#p4990709

A new rule like:
No more than two friendly naval stacks around an enemy port.

[ncc1701e]

What do you mean by "most of the area"? If the Japanese are in Guadalcanal, don't you think they can supply Espirito Santo or Noumea?

At which stage do we limit ourselves? There are already plenty of restrictions.

I mean chain supply and no they could not supply Noumea if they are in Guadalcanal.

SO many places that planes could be stationed they would lose all their ships to them.

The thoughts I had was they need to have a supply chain to each island to make transporting safe for their shipping.

Look at the islands and think of them like a land bridge. Without that...shipping is at risk.

From Henderson field to say Espirito Santo to Noumea.

If they don't have those...then no supplies just could not safely be delivered.

But, will all the planes that the Allies can bring quickly, ships in Noumea could be at risk. That's why lowering the port level to 3 is enough because ships will have to move out.

And, as Allies, you can start port blockade as well.

[ncc1701e]

The strategy to cut South Pacific convoy lane is a good one. Taking Noumea to achieve this may be good too.

See, the turn just after the capture of Noumea, I am already doing a port blockade.

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South Pacific.JPG (125.26 KiB) Viewed 768 times

[ncc1701e]

And the invasion is not without risk.

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Nagato 1.JPG (121.62 KiB) Viewed 764 times

[ncc1701e]

The Nagato BB has been sunk by New Zealand air force.

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Nagato 2.JPG (109.25 KiB) Viewed 763 times

[ncc1701e]

See the superb naval battle starting in South Pacific. The Japanese are quite isolated in Noumea. Don't put restriction please. Just lower the port level of Noumea to 3. Remove the Engineer specialty to the US unit in Noumea.

It will work. Allies can do port blockade in night move every turn. Japanese are too far away, they won't be able to break the port blockade with ships in night move. With all Allies planes around, these Japanese ships will be at risk.

This is the end for Noumea very soon once Noumea is a port level 3.

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Superb battle.JPG (160.17 KiB) Viewed 755 times

[ago1000]

Re:

A new rule like:
No more than two friendly naval stacks around an enemy port.

In your proposal that I read, the encircling of a port is considered a valid move. Furthermore, what you propose would be more difficult to program than simply placing supply restrictions which are already in place in areas in the game.

Having one hex at the port opening that enemy fleets cannot enter might prevent the encircling issue and may be easier to program. However, it might lead to issues with map design and some ports locations may need to be redesigned to accommodate this. (Not sure of the implications).

I would guess if the Noumea gambit is a game play issue, then more than likely, supply restrictions will be implemented as those game mechanics are already in place.

Appendum:
If you make it size 3 without restrictions, make the port expandable as it did play a major part in the war. Historially, after the battle of Corel Sea and Midway had favourable results for the US, the plan to upgrade the port of Aukland in New Zealand (US first choice) was abandoned and Noumea was chosen and became the major port with its fuel depot, ship repair facilities in the area.

[ncc1701e]

In your proposal that I read, the encircling of a port is considered a valid move. Furthermore, what you propose would be more difficult to program than simply placing supply restrictions which are already in place in areas in the game.

...

I would guess if the Noumea gambit is a game play issue, then more than likely, supply restrictions will be implemented as those game mechanics are already in place.

Yes, I am not against the encirclement of a port. I am not even against the fact that Noumea can be invaded early. My only problem is that Noumea port level is too high.

As I say before, the port was not at this level in December 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Base_Noumea

Historically, there were no engineers at this time in Noumea i.e. December 7th, 1941. According to wikipedia, only in July and August 1942 Seabees arrived and began building the Naval Base.

I just would like the port to be a port level 3 when the game starts. This will resolve the whole thing. And, removing the Engineer specialty, to the US unit in Noumea, will prevent upgrading any port too early for the Allies.

South Pacific will be much more entertaining and neither side will say it has an advantage.

[ago1000]

In your proposal that I read, the encircling of a port is considered a valid move. Furthermore, what you propose would be more difficult to program than simply placing supply restrictions which are already in place in areas in the game.

...

I would guess if the Noumea gambit is a game play issue, then more than likely, supply restrictions will be implemented as those game mechanics are already in place.

Yes, I am not against the encirclement of a port. I am not even against the fact that Noumea can be invaded early. My only problem is that Noumea port level is too high.

As I say before, the port was not at this level in December 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Base_Noumea

Historically, there were no engineers at this time in Noumea i.e. December 7th, 1941. According to wikipedia, only in July and August 1942 Seabees arrived and began building the Naval Base.

I just would like the port to be a port level 3 when the game starts. This will resolve the whole thing. And, removing the Engineer specialty, to the US unit in Noumea, will prevent upgrading any port too early for the Allies.

South Pacific will be much more entertaining and neither side will say it has an advantage.

We were probably thinking the same thing as I was editing my post above when I see this now.

Appendum:
If you make it size 3 without restrictions, make the port expandable as it did play a major part in the war. Historially, after the battle of Corel Sea and Midway had favourable results for the US, the plan to upgrade the port of Aukland in New Zealand (US first choice) was abandoned and Noumea was chosen and became the major port with its fuel depot, ship repair facilities in the area.

Your solution is also an easy fix too. Once again, if this is an issue. It's not when you play the AI all the time.


This means Noumea can atmost be increased to a size 5 port, at the moment it is 6. Not sure if in the long run this would be an issue also then.
Appendum: Found it.

[ncc1701e]

In the long run, port level 5 or 6 won't change anything. See how many ships and subs this is already costing to Japan naval forces. The important thing is that Japan won't be able to repair them in Noumea. Also, with a port level < 5, Noumea will be subject to Naval Attack from surface ships.

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naval air strike 1.JPG (127.92 KiB) Viewed 709 times

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naval air strike 2.JPG (96.65 KiB) Viewed 709 times

[ago1000]

Thank you for the information. I won't be able to try it until this weekend but maybe you already know the answer.
How quickly can the Axis get an engineering unit there to upgrade the port? Approximately what time frame would you say if Axis could hold Noumea would they get it to size 5? I am assuming you saw this strategy in a HvH game?
Just wondering.

[ncc1701e]

Thank you for the information. I won't be able to try it until this weekend but maybe you already know the answer.
How quickly can the Axis get an engineering unit there to upgrade the port? Approximately what time frame would you say if Axis could hold Noumea would they get it to size 5? I am assuming you saw this strategy in a HvH game?
Just wondering.

They have already an army with engineer specialty at start on the map. I will say they can move it to Noumea. BUT, this army is useful to advance quickly in Burma. So, this is a trade off. Either you advance in Burma, either you send this army in Noumea in three turns and you fail in India.

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Japan Engineer 1.JPG (226.18 KiB) Viewed 701 times

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Japan Engineer 2.JPG (187.46 KiB) Viewed 701 times