One problem that I encountered was that ap amo that was limitied to 5 rounds in a panzer IV was used very quickly on low possibility shots againts other tanks. If I disable the gun in the tank would firing the coax mmg increase the odds of a hit for the main gun.
The other question is: Can the number of ap or heat rounds be adjustable when resuplying the tanks in the field by using trucks or a depot? This would somewhat reflect what the crews would do in the field depending on what they encounter.
Ap fire and ammo
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Well, yes. the problem gets even more itching in case of special ammos, like APFS (DS), HEAT etc, which are usually carried in only few rounds. How to influence crews selection of ammo? Let's say some big gun may take a scout car out even with HE round, but it will waste precious AT even though.
I would like the possibility to disable ammo, as well as weapons.
I would like the possibility to disable ammo, as well as weapons.
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Larry Holt
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- Location: Atlanta, GA 30068
There was some discussion about ammo selection in another thread. I believe it was Paul Vebber who answered that sometimes crews just choose the wrong ammo and this is not something that BN/RGT commanders control so this is somewhat realistic. Then again this is a game, not a true simulation so perhaps Matrix can put in a switch to allow ammo type overrides or not, similar to the limited ammo on or not feature. Sometimes I want to play a really realistic game and sometimes I just want to have fun. 
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
Never take counsel of your fears.
I have no problem with tank commanders choosing their amo for firing at targets. The thing that I would like to see is the capability of reloading certain amo from the supply tucks or depos. If you encounter a lot of armor in a battle the commanders of the vehicles would have adjusted their amo acordingly.
Just to ad my penny's worth. I'd like to give my vote to some sort of ammo selection routine in the game. It appears that the crews in the game just fire off their 'specials' first. Yes I appreciate the comment about loading errors being made in real life. But it is so annoying to see 'special' ammo being wasted against the enemy reccy screen then leaving you with basic AP to take on the main armour.
In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.
>I believe it was Paul Vebber who answered >that sometimes crews just choose the wrong >ammo and this is not something that BN/RGT >commanders control so this is somewhat >realistic.
Iam not sure about other commanders, but I can imagine, being BN/RGT commander, I could issue an order not to fire "special" rounds on HT's and recon. It could be just that: order ... not 100% blocking switch, so it could occasionally be disobeyed ... the same with AT guns and infantry. If I can order AT gun NOT to fire until enemy is closer than 200 yards, then I can as well order them NOT to fire at infantry AT ALL.
SO i would like to see the posibility to disable ammo types as well as weapons.
Renwor
Iam not sure about other commanders, but I can imagine, being BN/RGT commander, I could issue an order not to fire "special" rounds on HT's and recon. It could be just that: order ... not 100% blocking switch, so it could occasionally be disobeyed ... the same with AT guns and infantry. If I can order AT gun NOT to fire until enemy is closer than 200 yards, then I can as well order them NOT to fire at infantry AT ALL.
SO i would like to see the posibility to disable ammo types as well as weapons.
Renwor
I may be mistaken here, but I believe the supply always feeds the ammo with the lowest total first, (though special rounds may be an exception). But, to be realistic, you don't have units banked by supply depots all the time so they can bombard non-stop. What if a round backfires causing an explosion with all that supply around? To be more realistic, a unit doesn't go hunting for supply, until it's been depleted considerably, so, when the unit reaches supply, it usually figures, that the rounds with the lowest total are the ones you've been shooting, therefore, it's probably the ones you want resupplied first. If the lowest rounds are always being the ones replaced, I wonder if that's comparable to the highest possible storage for that particular unit and type of round, or if it's just the rounds with the lowest total altogether? For example, IF a PZIVC has 20 max. AP rounds and 50 HE rounds max., and it reports to supply with 30 HE rounds, and 19 AP rounds, which reserve would get the first shell?
Iam not sure about other commanders, but I can imagine, being BN/RGT commander, I could issue an order not to fire "special" rounds on HT's and recon. It could be just that: order ... not 100% blocking switch, so it could occasionally be disobeyed ... the same with AT guns and infantry. If I can order AT gun NOT to fire until enemy is closer than 200 yards, then I can as well order them NOT to fire at infantry AT ALL.
SO i would like to see the posibility to disable ammo types as well as weapons.
Renwor[/B][/QUOTE]
Perhaps it might help to give you an idea of what happens in a tank during a fire mission. This is based on my experience in the British army in the early 80's but the basic principal was layed down in WW2 and I should imagine that the method is not that different from US, Russian or who evers fire orders.
The first point is, we never drove about with a bullet in the tube. The gun was always empty, but with the breach open. as the commander I would start a fire mission with calling out the ammo type I wanted loading, be it Shot, Shell, Hesh, or Sabot. As well as that giving the whole crew a 'heads up' warning it also told the gunner exactly which ammo to load.
Yes mistakes were made, but not as often as some might think. The loader might put the wrong bullet up the tube on occasion, or the gunner may lay on the wrong target, though that would be more unlikely as the rest of the fire order was aimed at getting him on the right target.
In game terms, I'd like to see a better AI decision making routine for the crews. But if that's not possible then a means for us as the player to force the types of ammo used. Not realistic I know, but as it stands I do feel that to much ammo is being wasted on the wrong types of target.
Again this is just my thoughs, just nit picking on what is a fine fine game!
SO i would like to see the posibility to disable ammo types as well as weapons.
Renwor[/B][/QUOTE]
Perhaps it might help to give you an idea of what happens in a tank during a fire mission. This is based on my experience in the British army in the early 80's but the basic principal was layed down in WW2 and I should imagine that the method is not that different from US, Russian or who evers fire orders.
The first point is, we never drove about with a bullet in the tube. The gun was always empty, but with the breach open. as the commander I would start a fire mission with calling out the ammo type I wanted loading, be it Shot, Shell, Hesh, or Sabot. As well as that giving the whole crew a 'heads up' warning it also told the gunner exactly which ammo to load.
Yes mistakes were made, but not as often as some might think. The loader might put the wrong bullet up the tube on occasion, or the gunner may lay on the wrong target, though that would be more unlikely as the rest of the fire order was aimed at getting him on the right target.
In game terms, I'd like to see a better AI decision making routine for the crews. But if that's not possible then a means for us as the player to force the types of ammo used. Not realistic I know, but as it stands I do feel that to much ammo is being wasted on the wrong types of target.
Again this is just my thoughs, just nit picking on what is a fine fine game!
In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.
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Paul Vebber
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Excellent comments Dave! The use of APCR on recce vehicles on a regular basis is something that should not be happening.
I will take a look at that!
2 things to consider from my viepoint:
1 - the player has MUCH greater situational awareness in the game as it is! Fice conrol is perfectly coordinated. No tank is ever engaged by two friendlies at once, extra rounds are never expended at "dead" targets, no blue on blue can ever occur (except for units occupying the same hex as an enemy).
The player already has such ahistorical fire coordination advantages at the btn/regmt level that adding perfect control of the type of round fired is a further step AWAY from the historical battlefield condition.
Thats not to say its not more fun or that it will never happen, just explaining my predisposition against it.
2. The game is attempting to model the outcome of the Btn/Rgmt level engagement, so teh design tries to keep the player thinking in terms of what my platoons are doing, not the individual tanks. My argument is not that individual TC's don't make good decisions based on what they know, but that combining the "near perfect" situational awareness of teh "omniscient Btn/Rgmt CO" with the ability to choose the exact round to shoot at the exact target at the right time, skews the overall combat results so much (in a situation where player control is already so "aistorical" that it grossly exaggerates casualties) as to be a net bad thing.
I will take a look at that!
2 things to consider from my viepoint:
1 - the player has MUCH greater situational awareness in the game as it is! Fice conrol is perfectly coordinated. No tank is ever engaged by two friendlies at once, extra rounds are never expended at "dead" targets, no blue on blue can ever occur (except for units occupying the same hex as an enemy).
The player already has such ahistorical fire coordination advantages at the btn/regmt level that adding perfect control of the type of round fired is a further step AWAY from the historical battlefield condition.
Thats not to say its not more fun or that it will never happen, just explaining my predisposition against it.
2. The game is attempting to model the outcome of the Btn/Rgmt level engagement, so teh design tries to keep the player thinking in terms of what my platoons are doing, not the individual tanks. My argument is not that individual TC's don't make good decisions based on what they know, but that combining the "near perfect" situational awareness of teh "omniscient Btn/Rgmt CO" with the ability to choose the exact round to shoot at the exact target at the right time, skews the overall combat results so much (in a situation where player control is already so "aistorical" that it grossly exaggerates casualties) as to be a net bad thing.
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Paul Vebber
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Paul has used the term "blue on blue" a couple of times, could someone tell me what it means, please.
Seems to me there was a Bobbie Vinton song called Blue On Blue are we useing Psyco warfare now? Please, Please not that. I surrender!!!
Anyone else noticed that the W@W letters look like the word WOW, only the O looks like a target.
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Hell On Wheels
Seems to me there was a Bobbie Vinton song called Blue On Blue are we useing Psyco warfare now? Please, Please not that. I surrender!!!
Anyone else noticed that the W@W letters look like the word WOW, only the O looks like a target.
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Hell On Wheels
PR
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Desert Fox
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- Location: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Two teams, the blue team and the red team are competing. Blue wants to score on red and red wants to score on blue. Blue on blue then refers to someone running into the wrong endzone for a safety. Or in war terms, this means [un]friendly fire. Note that this can get all too literal when you order a flamethrower team to hit an enemy unit in a hex with some of your other units.Originally posted by Pack Rat:
Paul has used the term "blue on blue" a couple of times, could someone tell me what it means, please.
He'd have lasted longer then the gunner I had who pushed a blank up the barrel of our Chieftain, but who'd forgot to take out the 16 cans of beer that we'd hidden in there! <grins>Originally posted by Wild Bill:
That loader would not have lasted long with you, would he Dave?
Wild Bill
In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.
I'll kep my fingers crossed that you can get this sorted Paul! As I would prefare the crew being able to do the job themselves too.Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
AS a seperate response, I just want to say that defiencies in the ammo selection algorithm are a DIFFERENT issue and that in any case I will examine how the AI si picking rounds with an eye towards improving it, independant of "player control" issues.
In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.
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He'd have lasted longer then the gunner I had who pushed a blank up the barrel of our Chieftain, but who'd forgot to take out the 16 cans of beer that we'd hidden in there! <grins>
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What a barbarian, i hope he was court martialed.
And remember don't drink and drive.
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Mvh Daniel E.
Divide et Impera
Daniel E
Daniel E