German mountain troops

gators · Post by **gators** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 6:44 pm

Why are there no German mountain troops in the OOB? They would certainly be useful in all of those Balkan scenarios.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 6:52 pm

Good question. One could argue that the GE OOB is packed as it is, all those SdKfz variations...

However, Gebirgsjäger did play a major role in many areas, esp. the Balkans, Carpatians and, most interesting from my point of view - Scandinavia :p

I'm not that familiar with the OOB editor (yet!). Maybe it's possible to change e.g. FJ units into mountain troops?

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 7:07 pm

Currently there are no open slots in the German OOb for anymore new units....the overflow of German units is in the Czechoslovakia one.
Changing a given unit to something else would have drastic effects on existing scenarios. If the FJ units are changed, any scenario that uses FJ units (and I know of a few that do) would have them replaced by the new units. Also, if you change the FJ, there goes Germany's airborne capability.

At this time, given the limits of the unit slots, there is no way to add mountain troops without sacrificing some other unit. The only possible solution is to add them in another Oob (such as was done in the Czech one) and inform everyone that they are there. The problem with this is they take on all the qualities of the host Oob nation (morale and experience base, leader names, and rally ratings) instead of the donor nation. So your 'German' mountain troops would have Czech morale and leaders.

To me, the viable solution would be to delete some (or all) of the duplicate color units in the German Oob. This would free up a dozen or so slots for expansion. After all, does it really matter if the German vehicles are gray or camo in 1944? Historically, I know it was so....but for gameplay, color doesn't make a difference. :rolleyes:

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 7:10 pm

Why not replace some of the duplicated armor? You know, the "Uhu's." OOPS, that would take out some of the advantage of playing as Germans! Forget I said it.

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 7:55 pm

Another solution would be to set the game up in the scenario editor, and then edit one of your infantry units. This would not be a permanent solution since you would have to do this every time you want a unit thats not in the oob. But thats one of the strong points of this game; it gives you the option to do this. I hope this helps. To me this is no problem since I did it alot before I knew about the oob editor.
Semper Fi
Randy

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 9:40 pm

Actually, Warrior..those Uhu Panthers aren't duplicates. They have an IR value of 10, which the regular Panthers don't.

That means they see in the dark....like real kitties.

sinner · Post by **sinner** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 4:50 am

Maybe you can use German Ski troops instead.

If not, what is the difference between Mountain troops and reglar infantry?

Salut,

BruceAZ_MatrixForum · Post by **BruceAZ_MatrixForum** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 5:33 am

Originally posted by freyburg:
Why are there no German mountain troops in the OOB? They would certainly be useful in all of those Balkan scenarios.

FYI. You might want to try the German Ski Troops if you can't find a emty slot in the OOB. I used them in my Norway Campaign and they move like real Gebirgs troops and have excellent combat attributes. If your Balkans scenario features winter weather, they are VERY tough to stop.

Bruce
Semper Fi

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:30 am

In reality aren't the Gebirsjagers actually
mountain/ski troops? I was thinking that you could change the name from ski troops to Gebirgsjagers and then adjust the morale, weapons, and other info to make them more of an elite status. This way you would get both
aspects and not have to worry about using up another weapons slot. Hope this helps
Semper Fi
Randy

BruceAZ_MatrixForum · Post by **BruceAZ_MatrixForum** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 6:43 pm

Originally posted by Randy:
In reality aren't the Gebirsjagers actually
mountain/ski troops? I was thinking that you could change the name from ski troops to Gebirgsjagers and then adjust the morale, weapons, and other info to make them more of an elite status. This way you would get both
aspects and not have to worry about using up another weapons slot. Hope this helps
Semper Fi
Randy

Hi Randy. This is a good idea. This way he can alter the name and attributes which will meet his needs.

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:30 am

A while ago we were talking about German Mtn troops. What is the TOE of a German Mtn troop squad? Any info will be great. Thanks

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:07 am

Originally posted by 5thRecon:
they are VERY tough to stop.

You mean those Ski Troops are able to assault vehicles now???...that wasn't the case with SPWAW 5.01

Colonel von Blitz

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:21 pm

I must admit that I'm not fully familiar with the TOE of GE ski troops, but the name implies winter use, right? The Gebirgsjäger (many of whom are converted Austrian infantry divisions) are all-weather troops.

Then again, I guess SPWAW doesn't feature that kind of terrain where the use of mountain troops is a major advantage. :p

Lapland or Invasion of Crete Campaign, anyone?

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:55 pm

Ski troops only "ski" on "winter" maps. in normal terrain they walk like regular troops. Combat Leader will allow user defined classes that will allow you to seperate "climbing" as a seperate capability

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:09 pm

I defintely think that the over-packing of the german oob is detrimental in some ways. The camo/grey thing is great from an art standpoint, but terrible from a game standpoint (the whole rarity thing and 'stealing' slots for legitimate units). It's crazy that the german oob doesn't support gebirgsjaegers, but does support truckloads of barely-produced versions of sdkfz 250 or 251. With these half-tracks there were so many variants that if you try to support some you get caught in a trap to support more than is reasonable. There were entire mountain divisions weren't there??

Tomo

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:20 pm

Originally posted by Tombstone:
I defintely think that the over-packing of the german oob is detrimental in some ways. The camo/grey thing is great from an art standpoint, but terrible from a game standpoint (the whole rarity thing and 'stealing' slots for legitimate units). It's crazy that the german oob doesn't support gebirgsjaegers, but does support truckloads of barely-produced versions of sdkfz 250 or 251. With these half-tracks there were so many variants that if you try to support some you get caught in a trap to support more than is reasonable. There were entire mountain divisions weren't there??

Tomo

11 Heer Divisions (1-9, 157, 188 Gebirgs Division), 4 Heer High Alpine battalions (Hochgebirgs Jäger Battalion) and 8 SS divisions (if not all at full divisional strength), including Nord, Prinz Eugen, Handschar and Skanderberg Division.

Of course, as with any other divisions, they weren't all active simultaneously.

They saw action in Poland, Crete, Russia, Norway, Balkans and Finland.

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:46 pm

Gebigjaergers and Ski troops are not the same thing.

Gebirgjaegers fight in all seasons, not just winter, but they specialize in fighting in mountainous terrain, thus having movement advantages on regular troops when it comes to difficult terrain, of which in SPWAW there is precious little.

They should move slightly faster through rough, rocks, boulders and woods, and ought to be given "climbing" ability.

All of this will come to pass once Combat Leader will be released, but can't be done in SPWAW without sacrificing some other element of the OOBs.

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 3:44 pm

Here you go Randy

Gebirgsjager

“A standard battalion had a strength of 877 officers and men who were organized into three Jager companies, a machine gun, an anti-tank and a heavy weapons company. Each Jager company had a strength of 147 men and was equipped with twelve light machine guns and three light and two 8cm mortars as well as an anti-tank rifle. The machine gun company, with a strength of 208 men, had twelve heavy machine guns and four 12 cm mortars, while the heavy weapons company with 201 men was equipped with four light machine guns and two 7.5 cm infantry howitzers. The anti-tank company had four guns and two rifles.
Three Gebirgsjager battalions and a headquarters group made up a regiment, which had a strength of 3064 all ranks. Regimental headquarters was composed of a signals platoon and a heavy mountain howitzer battery.
Two Jager regiments and an artillery regiment, together with the usual services, made up a Gebirgs division. This formation had a strength of 13,056 officers and men. Included within the establishment were 2330 men of the artillery regiment equipped with twenty-four guns of 7.5cm calibre and twelve 7.5cm mountain howitzers, twelve 15cm howitzers and twelve 10.5 cm howitzers. These weapons were divided among the four battalions which comprised an artillery regiment in a Gebirgs division.
A signals battalion, a semi-motorised reconnaissance battalion, a motorised anti-tank gun battalion, and a battalion of semi-motorised engineers were the principal ancillary units and the train, which completed the divisional establishment, included pack animals organized usually at battalion level but which, under difficult conditions of terrain, could be formed so as to supply individual companies. Most Gebirgs divisions had a Hochgebirgs battalion of five companies and a support company with a platoon of engineers, one of signals and one of light howitzers.”

After the campaign in France during 1940, certain former infantry divisions were converted to become panzer or panzer grenadier and that their surplus regiments were reformed a Gebirgsjager and posted to Gebirgs divisions. (paraphrased)

“There were, however specialist categories of mountain men whose skills could not be learnt as a drill but were achieved through a combination of birth in an Alpine area and years of living among and climbing the high mountain peaks, These men formed the Hochgebirgs companies and battalions and most of them were also qualified mountain guides. It was the task of these individual soldiers to blaze trails and they were usually formed into a Hochgebirgs detachment for that purpose. On other occasions their companies would lead assaults, particularly in the higher Alpine altitudes.”

All quotes taken from "Alpine Elite German Mountain Troops of World War II"
By: James Lucas (1st Battalion, the Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment, during the North African campain and with the Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment in Italy, now Deputy Head of the Department of Photographs ate the Imperial War Museum)
Copyright 1980 Cooper and Lucas Limited
First published in the United Kingdom in 1980 by Jane’s Publishing Company Limited
Published in the United States of America in 1980 by Jane’s Publishing Incorporated

This is a very interesting book.

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 11:31 am

:)pbear, hey thanks alot for that OOB info. It was more than I could have expected. Thanks for the info on the book, I'll try to hunt it down. Thanks again!!

gators · Post by **gators** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:32 pm

the materials about Handschar that I read, Mitcham's Crumbling Empire make me really dubious about any combat value for Handschar unless you have some Christian villages in the Balkans to be destroyed.