Game mechanics questions (standoff, relocate, resupply)

[JacquesDeLalaing]

I am disappointed that the game mechanics have not become any less opaque than in the predecessor. The manual describes the game mechanics in very vague, general terms (and it is very unconvenient to search in it because the table of contents is printed on every single page, leading to 200+ results for whatever you type into your search....). So it's often hard to understand what's going on in the game.

Here are some of the questions I was wondering about in particular. If anyone knows the answers, it would be highly appreciated:

STANDOFF
How is "standoff" supposed to work? It doesn't seem to work for me at all. Whenever I set it in my units SOP settings, my unit never tries to back up, despite having enemy units well within its SOP range. I've tried out various orders (hold and screen) but to no avail. Units just sit there and fire away. Also, how does standoff work in the first place? Does the unit get a new order (and suffer order delay?).

Also, is standoff directly linked to the "tactical initiative" and "acceptable losses" settings? Judging from the SOP-interface, one would assume so, but how? I suppose that the standoff range should trigger regardless of losses? Also, if I want a unit to standoff, am I supposed to set "tactical initiative" to generous?

RELOCATE
Relocate in combination with "fire mission" settings only works for indirect fire units, not for direct fire units, it seems? Also, this setting simply doesn't seem to work in the first place? Nothing happens when my units (set to relocate after taking any fire) get fired upon. Again I also wonder, what kind of movement a relocation is? Is there order delay on it? How far will the unit relocate?

RESUPPLY
Can units now resupply without any problems even if under fire? The manual doesn't say anything differently.

ORDER DELAY
The "order delay" information displayed in the unit dashboard is totally misleading. I have no clue what kind of value it shows. I guess it's just the extra delay added by the units' status, whereas order delay actually depends much more on the type of order? I suppose (I can't say with any certainty, as the manual doesn't explain this) that the base order delay depends on the type of order. E.g. a move hasty seems to take about 10 minutes, a move deliberate 35 mins, etc. (tested with soviet units, veteran, soft factors at 100%).

And you can still drag around waypoints at your liking without suffering delays, which opens the door for extremely gamey exploits. I hope that at least the "delete waypoint to circumvent order delay" exploit is gone?

And as we still cannot set any "triggers" to waypoints, a orderly retreat is still not possible in the game? As mentioned above, standoff and relocate doesn't seem to work. (And even if standoff would work like I suppose it should, it would still fail in dense terrain like woods, where units spot enemy units only at point blank range). The best approximation you can have is to set an order with multiple waypoints and then add a high "delay" the order manually. If you want to trigger the orderly retreat to the next position (without going through 35+ min of order delay), you have to manually reduce the delay of the waypoint.

[IronMikeGolf]

"I am disappointed that the game mechanics have not become any less opaque than in the predecessor."

Help me out here. How deep is your information need and what's the "why" behind it?

Having asked that, the opacity is this area is largely intentional and goes to what Player experience we are trying to provide and the resulting game design philosophy. That experience is command at the Battalion/Brigade/Regiment level. So we look hard at what information, be it in game or depth of knowledge of game mechanics, we make available as the knowledge (both in-game and mechanics) influence or enable decision making. So, some level of opacity of mechanics is not only desired but mandatory for what we want to deliver to Players.

A sad confession is that there are some things in the manual that are not up to date. Order Delay is one of those. We are correcting discrepancies as we (or the Community) spot them. So, I'll give a better description of this later in this post.

Another important part of what we want to deliver to Players is battlefield friction and we try very hard to make that happen at the places and with the resultant effect for Colonels and their staffs reasonably close to what happens in a real battlefield. Part of that friction is how quickly a subordinate unit can implement an order from a higher HQs. This was pretty simplistic in RS and depended on just a handful of factors. It's up to 15 factors now (and likely to grow). Some are additive, some are multiplicative. And the delay itself has friction, since some factors are dynamic as related to unit state and that can change between the time an order was issued and when the unit begins to execute the order. So the displayed order delay is a ballpark figure whenever you look at it. That is intentional.

A description of Order Delay contributors:
1. The two main components are a delay in order transmission (how long does it take for a unit to receive an order) and the time it takes a unit to prepare to execute, once it receives the order.
2. Transmission Delay. These are additive (if they apply)
a. New order vs current order. This is about order creation. Going from Screen to Hold is faster than going from Screen to Assault. An Assault order is the most complex order to put together.
b. Number of intervening HQs
c. Number of intervening fire support nodes
d. Type of unit getting the order
e. EW burden
f. Inside/outside Command range

3. Preparation Delay (unit receiving the order). These are multipliers. Unit is:
a. Moving.
b. Receiving direct fire
c. Receiving indirect fire
d. Receiving air strike
e. Receiving a chemical attack/chemical contamination
f. Proximity to nuclear attack
g. Chemical protection gear in use
h. Casualties previously incurred
i. Traversing obstacle or contaminated area
j. Initiating a scoot movement

On the one hand, we want friction for the player! On the other hand we want to support as much modding as we can. But on the gripping hand, we don't want to open up things to breaking the core player experience nor depart too far from our view of the battlefield. So, we do not support modding of this mechanic. I won't go into any further detail on this nor am I going to provide numbers or any formulas.

[budd]

Glad I read this thread, I was about to post about the order times waypoints to include start and arrive were inaccurate. So it's a design choice to try and make me yell at my screen ...mission accomplished.

So those order and waypoint times will not update at all, they'll stay the same as when ordered? Sure does play hell on coordinating things between units or commands.....but I guess that's the point and the friction your talking about.

[WildCatNL]

Glad I read this thread, I was about to post about the order times waypoints to include start and arrive were inaccurate. So it's a design choice to try and make me yell at my screen ...mission accomplished.

So those order and waypoint times will not update at all, they'll stay the same as when ordered? Sure does play hell on coordinating things between units or commands.....but I guess that's the point and the friction your talking about.

The order and waypoint times will update during execution.
Just lock a UnitDashboard to a single unit performing movement orders, and track it during orders resolution. You'll see the timings being adjusted, accounting for delays incurred, traffic jams, dismounts exiting carriers upon spotting hostiles. They are the unit's best estimate.

William

[budd]

Roger that

[cbelva]

One thing to remember about this time frame, it is before GPS, smart phones, etc. Commanders still used compasses and watches to maneuver. I don't have the experience of IronMikeGolf, but I know during my time in the operation sections of a battalion and then a brigade HQs, coordinating movement of companies and battalion was not easy. They didn't always move when they were supposed to. They would get bunched or too spread out if things were not properly handled. I remember on instance at the NTC where a company ended up way off course in the wrong location. That is one thing we don't simulate in the game. You unit usually do get to the locations you select.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

"I am disappointed that the game mechanics have not become any less opaque than in the predecessor."

Help me out here. How deep is your information need and what's the "why" behind it?

Please don't get me wrong. I do like friction and a certain degree of "black box" in my games.

But! I don't like the black box when I fail to understand the results I see in the game and when the information the game provides doesn't match what's really going on under the hood (like our example in the other post: If the game tells me that the unit is dug-in, I assume it is dug-in. I don't want to have to ask on the forums how to "interpret" the game...) In such a complex title as this, the black box is not really helping. It would be very helpfull to give players a debug/tutorial mode, that allows them to see a biter deeper into the blackbox.

Why is that unit not moving? Why does this unit not relocate/standoff despite my SOP-setting telling it to do so? Does my unit lose all the benefits of its HOLD order if I let it go into Resupply or give it a move order with delay? These are very basic and important questions that are not answered anywhere.

From my own game experience and from watching other players play FS:SS on youtube and twitch, it gets very frustrating when you don't know if the results you see in the game are due to bad tactics, a misunderstanding of game mechanics, or a bug. You can't tell for sure what's a bug and what's working as intended - the difference is shrouded in intentional "friction". In the end, game play feels random and out of the player's control. Also, if you want to encourage modding, I think you need to give players an adequate understanding of the game mechanics. How are we supposed to mod something we don't understand?

Another important part of what we want to deliver to Players is battlefield friction and we try very hard to make that happen at the places and with the resultant effect for Colonels and their staffs reasonably close to what happens in a real battlefield. Part of that friction is how quickly a subordinate unit can implement an order from a higher HQs. This was pretty simplistic in RS and depended on just a handful of factors. It's up to 15 factors now (and likely to grow). Some are additive, some are multiplicative. And the delay itself has friction, since some factors are dynamic as related to unit state and that can change between the time an order was issued and when the unit begins to execute the order. So the displayed order delay is a ballpark figure whenever you look at it. That is intentional.

A description of Order Delay contributors:
1. The two main components are a delay in order transmission (how long does it take for a unit to receive an order) and the time it takes a unit to prepare to execute, once it receives the order.
2. Transmission Delay. These are additive (if they apply)
a. New order vs current order. This is about order creation. Going from Screen to Hold is faster than going from Screen to Assault. An Assault order is the most complex order to put together.
b. Number of intervening HQs
c. Number of intervening fire support nodes
d. Type of unit getting the order
e. EW burden
f. Inside/outside Command range

3. Preparation Delay (unit receiving the order). These are multipliers. Unit is:
a. Moving.
b. Receiving direct fire
c. Receiving indirect fire
d. Receiving air strike
e. Receiving a chemical attack/chemical contamination
f. Proximity to nuclear attack
g. Chemical protection gear in use
h. Casualties previously incurred
i. Traversing obstacle or contaminated area
j. Initiating a scoot movement

Thanks a lot, it's interesting to know, but understanding order delays still remains a riddle to me. E.g. while you say that assault orders are the most complex ones, I systematically/regularly experience that "deliberate move" orders have a greater delay than "assault" orders. Also, if I turn a unit into an independent unit (thus reducing the amount of intervening HQs), I don't experience any reduction of order delay. So, at that point, it's nice to know that supposedly there are many factors under the hood. But this still doesn't help me understand why unit A or B is taking so long and is losing me a game I've been planning and playing for hours...

And as mentioned in the other thread, order delay of assault and move deliberate orders can be circumvented by retroactively changing order types. I wonder if and how this affects scenario balance. It requires house ruling in multiplayer games...
---------------------
Here are some more questions that seem really important to me:

a) If a unit is dug-in (HOLD for approx. 30 minutes) and receives a resupply order, does it lose the protective benefits of the dug-in posture (harder to spot, cover)? Likewise, if a dug-in unit is ordered to move, does it keep its dug-in benefits while preparing (order delay) to move?

b) What's the "height" of smoke? I don't want enemy positions fire over my smoke screen...

c) Are you supposed to fire smoke directly on the enemy position and/or your approach route? Or are you supposed to build a "wall" in between the enemy positions and your approaching units? Is a unit in a hex with smoke affected in the same way as a unit trying to see through a hex with smoke?

d) I've also noticed that you cannot coordinate orders by setting a common point of time or h-hour. Orders are not based on points in time but on delays (after completing the previous order). Now if that's an actual design choice I must say it makes gameplay infuriatingly frustrating. If unit A arrives at the line of departure sooner than the game has predicted (which happens quite often, by the way), then it will not wait until the smoke screen is laid down, but just start to assault into its death. Yes, you can theoretically prevent it. You can check EACH AND EVERY SINGLE UNIT every turn and make sure to update all the delays on every single order. Is this fun? No. Is it realistic? I'm not an expert but I'd also say no. People had watches. If h-hour is at 06.00, you don't move against the enemy all alone at 05.43. So while the game is supposedly all about coordination, friction, tempo and combined arms, you can't even set an h-hour for an attack... Please consider giving us the option to set h-hours for orders. Without that, the game basically does't allow coordination. (You can only coordinate the very first order, so if you wanted to launch a coordinated attack, you'd be required to wait for your order cycle and go through the full order delay at the line of departure... which is not making full use of the new potential that the new 6 waypoints and the combination of various order types promises...)

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Another question:

Screenshot: https://ibb.co/PmJDJqM

The soviet mech company has BMP-2s that come with Night Vision sensors (detect 1.5k, classify 1.2k, identify 0.75k).
According to the SOP of the unit's current order, the BMPs are not "hidden", but "supporting".
The unit is fresh and not under any fire.

Yet, the LOS overlay does not indicate the unit having any LOS beyond its own hex.

Is this true? If so, why are the BMP optics not working? Is the overlay wrong?
Also I assume that APCs that are "hidden" (not in "support") cannot make use of their sensors?

(Also, I'd like to point out that one cannot read the text in the weather display window... the background is too dark, so there is not enough contrast).

EDIT: I think it might be raining slightly.... This could explain the detection range being cut down to less than one third?

[Stimpak]

I can also corroborate that Deliberate moves currently have a greater delay than Assault orders.

[IronMikeGolf]

I can also corroborate that Deliberate moves currently have a greater delay than Assault orders.

I am wondering of folks are looking at this with units that are freshly on the map, whether during the initial set up phase or when a unit has just come on map as a reinforcement.

In those two cases, orders have no delay.

[IronMikeGolf]

"EDIT: I think it might be raining slightly.... This could explain the detection range being cut down to less than one third?"

Yes, precipitation cuts down the ranges.

[CapnDarwin]

Also, if it is night, check the illumination level. If it is low or zero, optical and night vision systems will be in-hex only.

[Stimpak]

I can also corroborate that Deliberate moves currently have a greater delay than Assault orders.

I am wondering of folks are looking at this with units that are freshly on the map, whether during the initial set up phase or when a unit has just come on map as a reinforcement.

In those two cases, orders have no delay.

In neither of those cases did I note the phenomenon. It was with units (Leopard 2s specifically) already on map. The fastest moving units are Hasty, followed by Assault, then Deliberate took the longest time for units to begin moving.

[WM2K]

STANDOFF
How is "standoff" supposed to work? It doesn't seem to work for me at all. Whenever I set it in my units SOP settings, my unit never tries to back up, despite having enemy units well within its SOP range. I've tried out various orders (hold and screen) but to no avail. Units just sit there and fire away. Also, how does standoff work in the first place? Does the unit get a new order (and suffer order delay?).

Also, is standoff directly linked to the "tactical initiative" and "acceptable losses" settings? Judging from the SOP-interface, one would assume so, but how? I suppose that the standoff range should trigger regardless of losses? Also, if I want a unit to standoff, am I supposed to set "tactical initiative" to generous?

Reading this thread and there hasnt been an explanation about the standoff ranges posted. I have noticed the same that I have stand off ranges set yet units will just plow into opposing units despite of the SoP. I am also overall very unclear as to how it works.

I am also unclear on unit roles. I have noticed that you can change unit roles. Will the behavior of say a unit of 10 tanks change if I change it from Main Effort to say Recce? Or Overwatch?

[IronMikeGolf]

Orders (Delay and Execution)
1. The number shown in the Dashboard is the amount of time remaining until the unit starts acting on the list of stuff in the left box. This is the transmission delay time.
2. When you issue an order, that delay is computed and displayed. The number counts down to zero during turn resolution.
3. The transmission delay is for the whole list and not a per waypoint thing.
4. Once the transmission delay is over, the unit has to go through preparation for everything in the list. Like transmission delay, this is not a waypoint level thing.

We're talking over making a change to the waypoint display, as it is unclear. The timestamp for the first waypoint gives you a "starting from" time, which is not a "start moving" time. It really an "order issued" time. It might be better to have the first line reflect that and for movement type waypoints, show the estimated arrival time at the waypoint. You have that info now, but it's the "starting from" time of the next entry.

[IronMikeGolf]

"I am also unclear on unit roles."

This applies to Group movement orders. When you create a Group and give it a movement order, the member units will move in a formation. The Role gives the lower level AI guidance on which units are where in that formation.

[budd]

"I am also unclear on unit roles."

This applies to Group movement orders. When you create a Group and give it a movement order, the member units will move in a formation. The Role gives the lower level AI guidance on which units are where in that formation.

So when you change a units role with the right click menu option all it changes for the unit is move order? So if you change a recon unit to support unit role it would drop back in the movement order for a group movement but have no effect on the unit otherwise.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

I can also corroborate that Deliberate moves currently have a greater delay than Assault orders.

I am wondering of folks are looking at this with units that are freshly on the map, whether during the initial set up phase or when a unit has just come on map as a reinforcement.

In those two cases, orders have no delay.

No, the units were not fresh on the map (neither as reinforcements nor during initial setup). It's an observeration form a running game. As a rule of thumb, for fresh units in HQ range, I think these order delay values seem pretty accurate, with the factors you've mentioned above having a rather small influence (that's also why I wonder if everything is working as intended... can't tell):

• Move Hasty 10 minutes
• Assault 20 minutes
• Move Deliberate 30 minutes

And again, the only delay that really matters is Move Hasty, because players can always set a Move Hasty order and retroactively change it to some other type of movement, without the delay getting updated. This "exploit" turns all the nuance that has gone into the order delay mechanism into a moot point.

Of course it's open for debate how much flexibility the game should allow. I for one would be okay if the order delay is the greatest delay of all the planned waypoints. E.g. if you set a "Move hasty" and a "Move deliberate" WP, then the order should use the "Move deliberate" delay? In this case, you should not be allowed to change the movement types once the order is already active/has started. And if you change the movement type of a waypoint while the order is not active, delay should be increased accordingly.

Orders (Delay and Execution)
1. The number shown in the Dashboard is the amount of time remaining until the unit starts acting on the list of stuff in the left box. This is the transmission delay time.
2. When you issue an order, that delay is computed and displayed. The number counts down to zero during turn resolution.
3. The transmission delay is for the whole list and not a per waypoint thing.
4. Once the transmission delay is over, the unit has to go through preparation for everything in the list. Like transmission delay, this is not a waypoint level thing.

Thank you for the additional information. It is highly appreciated. It's also one of the things where I as the player just wonder what the game is trying to tell me. E.g. I had no clue that it actually displays a count-down. And that it shows only one part of the order delay (transmission, not processing delay). So far, the order delay info just had players confused because the number shown varied highly (as it is a count-down), did not match the time it actually took units to start their orders (because it only shows one part of the equation!). So it was totally unexplicable.

With this new knowledge I will be able to take a closer look and give better informed feedback. I think the game could benefit a lot if it explained itself a bit better. There still remains enough friction and black box.

We're talking over making a change to the waypoint display, as it is unclear. The timestamp for the first waypoint gives you a "starting from" time, which is not a "start moving" time. It really an "order issued" time. It might be better to have the first line reflect that and for movement type waypoints, show the estimated arrival time at the waypoint. You have that info now, but it's the "starting from" time of the next entry.

Yes, I ahve noticed that. The starting time just tells you when the order was received. If you want to know when a unit will actually start moving, you need to consider the "starting at" of the follow-up order and estimate how much time it takes the unit to travel. Not very intuitive.

And again I (and at least two fellow players I've been talking to) strongly propose to allow players to set time stamps to orders. There must be a setting so that an order is not carried out before time X (absolute point in time, not relative time/delay). Without the ability to set an h-hour, basic coordination is nigh impossible and requires an infuriating amount of micromanagement (manually checking/updating the waypoints of every single unit every single turn cycle). Also, I can't see any realism-argument against it. Unit XY will not break cover prematurely if the suppression fire has not set in...

[HobbesACW]

You make some great points Jacques. I'm sure they will be given consideration.

Chris

[HowieWowie]

I'm a new player and I find this thread really interesting as I work on learning the game. I've been having a blast so far!

I also think the idea of an H-Hour feature would be a good addition.

I'm surprised to learn about the "Move Hasty" exploit. Is there a plan to fix this in a patch?