ORIGINAL: harlekwin
...We may not be able to alter the course on this but we may be able to protect CL/CA from this sort of thing...
Exactly.
What the Heck has happened to this forum???
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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JJKettunen
- Posts: 2293
- Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:00 pm
- Location: Finland
RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum???
Exactly.
RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum???
I think the fight was over before 8.0 was released; thats when they started to ignore people who pointed out errors, and when the secrecy about the OOB's started. Beaten without firing any shots...
Goblin[:(]
Goblin[:(]
OOB
Hi, If OOB do not reflect history and reality then they are fantasy.
People who want a perfectly balanced game only need to have both sides take the same points and same nation. Presto perfect balance. The OOB should be for players who want to fight WW2 era battles between WW2 era nations. Accuracy (such as can be defined and documented) should be the paramount consideration. To make these battles balanced you use mission type and turn numbers not "tweeked" data.
People who want a perfectly balanced game only need to have both sides take the same points and same nation. Presto perfect balance. The OOB should be for players who want to fight WW2 era battles between WW2 era nations. Accuracy (such as can be defined and documented) should be the paramount consideration. To make these battles balanced you use mission type and turn numbers not "tweeked" data.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: OOB
But you are forgetting game engine limitations...[:D]
Goblin[;)]
Goblin[;)]
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Rune Iversen
- Posts: 599
- Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Copenhagen. Denmark
- Contact:
RE: OOB
ORIGINAL: Goblin
But you are forgetting game engine limitations...[:D]
Goblin[;)]
The trackbusting MG strikes again[:'(]
Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within
Fighting the EUnuchs from within
RE: OOB
ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen
ORIGINAL: Goblin
But you are forgetting game engine limitations...[:D]
Goblin[;)]
The trackbusting MG strikes again[:'(]
Actually, yes. They are still in the game in at least 6 spots, and that was just a brief scan by myself. I reported it, and they then wanted me to list where, what gun, nation, etc...[X(]
Nope.[8D]
Goblin
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Commander Klank
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Killleen, Texas
- Contact:
RE: OOB
Goblin!
Tell me where the track busting machineguns are in the game or I'll turn on the lights!!![X(]
Tell me where the track busting machineguns are in the game or I'll turn on the lights!!![X(]
Commander Klank
RE: OOB
Oh boy. I'm just talking about the inherent difficulties in something as complex as our favorite game. I see passions run high, I'm not trying to stir anything up... and Sven! I didn't make a comment about sarcasm or rancor (whose definition I'm not really aware of aside from the the Star Wars beast), that was someone else! Ammo, I'm sorry to sense your bitterness over this. I guess I'm lucky I haven't had a chance to play for a while. I'm only posting here so much lately cause I'm sick. I don't know who the guys who are working on the OOBs are now, and I'm not trying to talk crap here but experience with this sort of thing is hard to come by. Sometimes going through the motions and taking your licks is the only way. If new people are trying to get the OOBs to come together let them work out there ramp up time. We would all run into similar difficulties. For any given moment of time working on the OOBs for SPWAW the amount of data and issues is totally overwhelming. I got like 5 associate producers, 2 producers, and *10* game designers and stuff still slips through cracks. Problems with philosophy are a different issue, but those who are in charge are in charge.
That being said, regarding the Sherman should be more balanced to the Tiger thing- ?? Is that actually something people were bouncing around in that form? Charles, are you sure it wasn't more a discussion about what THEY believed to be the historical relationship?
Tomo
That being said, regarding the Sherman should be more balanced to the Tiger thing- ?? Is that actually something people were bouncing around in that form? Charles, are you sure it wasn't more a discussion about what THEY believed to be the historical relationship?
Tomo
RE: OOB
ORIGINAL: Commander Klank
Goblin!
Tell me where the track busting machineguns are in the game or I'll turn on the lights!!![X(]
See my thread at The Depot.
[:-] No Lights!
Goblin[8D]
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Capt. Pixel
- Posts: 1178
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Tucson, AZ
RE: OOB
I like 7.1 H2Hce. It gives me hours of worry-free entertainment every day (and I get my willy star *)
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
- Stonewall Jackson
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Kevin E. Duguay
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:46 am
- Location: Goldsboro, North Carolina
RE: OOB
Goblin,
You pointed out that people that pointed out errors at the time of the7.1 release were ignored or worse. This was going on long before that. Around 6.0 or earlier I pointed out the Dreaded Russian T-37 assult gun that did not exist except as maybe a prototype. ITS still in the game. The Mobelwagen armed with the 20mm Flakvierling only one made. Production models were armed with a 37mm flak gun. But the old guard kept the wrong Icon and the info anyways even when Warhorse was nice enough to post the right Icon. The only person that seemed to listen to me at all was Panzer Leo. You won't find these bizzare anomilies in H2H.
Is this done because of arrogance, the "I'm smarter than you" syndrom? Well it beats the heck out of me. Now I must say that it seems that THEY are listening a little better, I just hope that THEY implement what they hear!
You pointed out that people that pointed out errors at the time of the7.1 release were ignored or worse. This was going on long before that. Around 6.0 or earlier I pointed out the Dreaded Russian T-37 assult gun that did not exist except as maybe a prototype. ITS still in the game. The Mobelwagen armed with the 20mm Flakvierling only one made. Production models were armed with a 37mm flak gun. But the old guard kept the wrong Icon and the info anyways even when Warhorse was nice enough to post the right Icon. The only person that seemed to listen to me at all was Panzer Leo. You won't find these bizzare anomilies in H2H.
Is this done because of arrogance, the "I'm smarter than you" syndrom? Well it beats the heck out of me. Now I must say that it seems that THEY are listening a little better, I just hope that THEY implement what they hear!
KED
RE: OOB
In honesty, I cannot speak for before this versions OOB, as I thought the others were decent. I speak specifically of changes made to this one, before release of it.
I assumed that the OOB changes were going to be fixing things like the ATG errors that Orzel pointed out, or the errors you pointed out, etc on and on, leaving stuff that was near to correct, or correct, alone. Instead, well, you know instead.
I personally think that this minor stuff should just have been fixed on the 7.1 OOB, and then released. Now pricing is involved in rarity enforcement, numbers are being made up for feel, etc etc. OOB team members have admitted to not even having 7.1 anymore. How can anything ever be reset or fixed? By listening to input, quoted sources, and admittedly, some educated guesswork where there exists no numbers. I still am baffled by some of the changes. We are told 'game code' constantly, but some of the changed things were working and accurate before the changes, so how can it be a code thing? I dunno.
I design scenarios now, so I worry less about stuff than I did. I simply change things when I design. Play is mostly ruined for me. One problem I have encountered now, is some numbers are not changable in the design editor. You can change FC for instance, but not RF. Thats bad when you look at the new .30 cal LMG. You can change the number of men in a unit, but not the ROF of weapons in it. Thats bad with the planned arty changes. You can change these things, but only if you package your own OOB's up and send them with your scenarios, and no player is going to go thru the hassle.
These are a few reasons I am so nervous about this release. They seem set on getting it out quickly, too.
Goblin
I assumed that the OOB changes were going to be fixing things like the ATG errors that Orzel pointed out, or the errors you pointed out, etc on and on, leaving stuff that was near to correct, or correct, alone. Instead, well, you know instead.
I personally think that this minor stuff should just have been fixed on the 7.1 OOB, and then released. Now pricing is involved in rarity enforcement, numbers are being made up for feel, etc etc. OOB team members have admitted to not even having 7.1 anymore. How can anything ever be reset or fixed? By listening to input, quoted sources, and admittedly, some educated guesswork where there exists no numbers. I still am baffled by some of the changes. We are told 'game code' constantly, but some of the changed things were working and accurate before the changes, so how can it be a code thing? I dunno.
I design scenarios now, so I worry less about stuff than I did. I simply change things when I design. Play is mostly ruined for me. One problem I have encountered now, is some numbers are not changable in the design editor. You can change FC for instance, but not RF. Thats bad when you look at the new .30 cal LMG. You can change the number of men in a unit, but not the ROF of weapons in it. Thats bad with the planned arty changes. You can change these things, but only if you package your own OOB's up and send them with your scenarios, and no player is going to go thru the hassle.
These are a few reasons I am so nervous about this release. They seem set on getting it out quickly, too.
Goblin
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
RE: OOB
ORIGINAL: Tombstone
Oh boy. I'm just talking about the inherent difficulties in something as complex as our favorite game. I see passions run high, I'm not trying to stir anything up... and Sven! I didn't make a comment about sarcasm or rancor (whose definition I'm not really aware of aside from the the Star Wars beast), that was someone else! Ammo, I'm sorry to sense your bitterness over this. I guess I'm lucky I haven't had a chance to play for a while. I'm only posting here so much lately cause I'm sick. I don't know who the guys who are working on the OOBs are now, and I'm not trying to talk crap here but experience with this sort of thing is hard to come by. Sometimes going through the motions and taking your licks is the only way. If new people are trying to get the OOBs to come together let them work out there ramp up time. We would all run into similar difficulties. For any given moment of time working on the OOBs for SPWAW the amount of data and issues is totally overwhelming. I got like 5 associate producers, 2 producers, and *10* game designers and stuff still slips through cracks. Problems with philosophy are a different issue, but those who are in charge are in charge.
That being said, regarding the Sherman should be more balanced to the Tiger thing- ?? Is that actually something people were bouncing around in that form? Charles, are you sure it wasn't more a discussion about what THEY believed to be the historical relationship?
Tomo
I was offering generalization. We've seen discussions where those uninformed would say things like the Sherman should at least equal the Tiger because the US won the war and the Sherman was the most prominent AFV for them. It has nothing to do with the OOB team as far as I know, but I don't think that given human nature, to see executed, some of the same philosophies we've seen in the forum by non-OOB team members, wouldn't be too unpredictable. I was just more trying to make a statement against 'balance' and some weird twists it takes. Whether these sort of discussions went on in the OOB forum or not, I do not recall.