Stingers not engaging planes

[WABAC]

After suffering a few airstrikes in A Final Push I decided to set up the test captured in this picture:

20221126FCSS.png (260.79 KiB) Viewed 1647 times

The 2/E is an M901 unit.

Working as designed?

[Stimpak]

What are their SOP settings?

[WABAC]

What are their SOP settings?

I am using the scenario's default of generous initiative at maximum range.

[CapnDarwin]

The M901 has an ADL-rated MG, so it can shoot (or try to). Not enough info to tell about the AD units. What are they? What is the weather like? What is the cloud ceiling? What range SOP are they set to? We know they will both shoot and kill helos and aircraft if they can engage.

[WABAC]

The M901 has an ADL-rated MG, so it can shoot (or try to). Not enough info to tell about the AD units. What are they? What is the weather like? What is the cloud ceiling? What range SOP are they set to? We know they will both shoot and kill helos and aircraft if they can engage.

The AD units are Stingers versus SU-24 Fencers. The Stingers at 81% readiness and 70% morale. The M901 was at 81% readiness and 81% morale.

Visibility is 10K meters. The ceiling is 1740 meters.

I have seen the Stingers kill helos in this scenario. Have never seen them take a shot at the planes. That's why I set up this test.

Could be a really terrible string of dice rolls. On the other hand, I suppose I should be happy with the kills racked up by the M901's and Bradleys. That's some good shooting.

[CapnDarwin]

We can check on the SAMs again to be sure they are working correctly.

[WABAC]

We can check on the SAMs again to be sure they are working correctly.

Let me track down another scenario that features Stingers vs planes before you get into all that.

[IronMikeGolf]

Biggest thing with MANPADS is you first have to have Unit level spotting. Precipitation and cloud ceiling mess things up. For Stingers, usually not precip, as most WP planes aren't all weather. Cloud ceiling still matters.

[WABAC]

Biggest thing with MANPADS is you first have to have Unit level spotting. Precipitation and cloud ceiling mess things up. For Stingers, usually not precip, as most WP planes aren't all weather. Cloud ceiling still matters.

So the 1740 meter ceiling affected the Stinger operators, but not the gunner on the 7.62 mmg on the M901?

[Rake]

I just went in and looked at the unit diaries from my end-of-game save from the 2nd tutorial. I had thought this was not an issue, but on review, the stingers never engaged the MiG-23 or the Grach. The stingers did do well against the Hinds, scoring 3 of the 4 kills. The diaries show all the engagements versus the helos, but not one against the jets.

I don't recall the weather conditions throughout the scenario, although it never did rain as in the example in the Tutorial Manual. I've gone back through several saves and the ceiling ranged from 3300 - 3700 feet. I di try to follow the orders from the manual as closely as possible

Hard to believe this game ended with a contested result. The Vulcans downed both Grachs and one of the MiGs; the other Flogger was dropped by, of all the nearby units........ the mortar section! The final result was 80% of the US forces remaining, although 5 of the 8 inactive subunits at the end were M1A1's. Other than the FARP, !5th Guards had 21 active subunits remaining.





The attack started late (the last 5 cycles or so) and I was just getting ready to move out to take the VL's when I realized that there wasn't enough time left for their capture. You have to retake the VL's in this scenario to win.

[CapnDarwin]

We will be looking at the SAMs engagement issue this week. Thanks for posting the information.

[Rake]

We will be looking at the SAMs engagement issue this week. Thanks for posting the information.

Thanks for looking into this; it does seem rather important, particularly for the US with their limited AD.

Now, for a little (OT) info on the Vulcan... This thing seems to be deadly against enemy air though I have only played through the two tutorials with it. Even as I was having my hat handed to me in Tutorial #3 (as expected), the Vulcan took out 3 of the Soviet jets. In two scenarios, this is 6 of 8 air attacks that the M163 has defeated. Although the Stingers were nearby, they again took no shots during the air attacks.

Granted, my game experience with this unit is limited. And, all killing shots have been at point blank range, 0 or 1 hex. My military experience was flying in the back of a P-3 listening for subs, so I have no direct knowledge of the Vulcan's usefulness. But, most reports I have read about the VADS regard this system as, well... Not too good! In fact, a quick search yielded this from interwebs:

"According to the Army, the VULCAN system had very limited effectiveness. For VULCAN to be effective, the target must be hovering or flying a non-maneuvering course toward the gun and be within a range of 1,000 meters. VULCAN provided only a low degree of suppression against maneuvering threats. When compared with other nations' ADA gun systems, Vulcan was ranked near the bottom in anti-aircraft effectiveness."

A 75% kill ratio

Apologies in advance for dragging this discussion away from the manpads, but this is still AD related. I haven't yet played the WP, so I know not whether the stinger issue affects other nationalities, too.

[WABAC]

Apologies in advance for dragging this discussion away from the manpads,

I don't mind. Sounds like a product I'm too old for. Or not old enough.

[CapnDarwin]

Funny jokes aside, we will look at these air/AD issues in detail through the holidays and hopefully make corrections for the January update.

[WABAC]

Funny jokes aside, we will look at these air/AD issues in detail through the holidays and hopefully make corrections for the January update.

The support effort Flashpoint puts into getting the game as right as possible within design objectives is the best I have ever seen.

The effort Flashpoint puts into answering user questions is better than for any other game I have ever owned.

[holley]

>>>The support effort Flashpoint puts into getting the game as right as possible within design objectives is the best I have ever seen.

>>>The effort Flashpoint puts into answering user questions is better than for any other game I have ever owned

It truly is and bear's repeating...

M.

[Kilo59]

>>>The support effort Flashpoint puts into getting the game as right as possible within design objectives is the best I have ever seen.

>>>The effort Flashpoint puts into answering user questions is better than for any other game I have ever owned

It truly is and bear's repeating...

M.

Ditto...

[CapnDarwin]

Thanks, guys. We want it to be correct and as real as we can make it. We make mistakes or data errors, and we are grateful for folks letting us know what they find and providing bug reports or information so we can fix the issues.

[Rake]

Funny jokes aside, we will look at these air/AD issues in detail through the holidays and hopefully make corrections for the January update.

The support effort Flashpoint puts into getting the game as right as possible within design objectives is the best I have ever seen.

The effort Flashpoint puts into answering user questions is better than for any other game I have ever owned.

I fully agree! This is my sole reason for my reports above, and apologies where due if anyone took this any other way.

FCSS was my most anticipated release in the last several years... and I haven't been disappointed

[IronMikeGolf]

re: Vulcans
"A 75% kill ratio"

You probably at some point have seen a combat hint during airstrikes next to the attacker saying something like "attempting to evade" and by the shooter something like "attempting to engage". This pair of hints represents our inclusion of just that: a shooter can't get off a shot because the attacking aircraft is maneuvering too much. I'll run some test specifically on fixed wing vs Vulcan, but that 75% is of shots taken.

Also surprise really matters for air defense. I am seeing almost a 10% drop in chance to kill when the shooter is spotted.

Progress note on the OT: found the bug on MANPADS and testing the fix. Also testing cutting out Air Defense Limited being able to shoot fixed wing aircraft.