Infiltrator Specialty and Advances in weather

[canuckgamer]

We are now in to our 4th PBEM although the first two were basically to learn game mechanics so we quit both before 1942.
What we are seeing is that EVERY German tank unit has the infiltrator specialty. Tanks already have a better probability of forcing a retreat so the infiltratory specialty is a double whammy. Russian armies attacked at 2-1 are forced to retreat. Now it may be that the low experience of Russian units is a contributing factor but the Germans can continue to advance in rain and heavy rain because of this.
Add this to the 1 op cost of advancing into the vacated defender's hex results in lots of Russian units still being cutoff even in bad weather.
I think the specialty has to be tweaked as tanks are already better at forcing retreats. Secondly advances into the defender's hex in weather such as rain and heavy rain should cost more than 1 op. We refer to the 1 op advance as the blitzkrieg rule and the fact is that weather slowed down the blitzkrieg.
The Axis won the first completed PBEM game and we are now at the end of November 1941 with the winterized Siberians arriving. So far it has played pretty well the same as our first game so not sure the change in rail advancement has helped in balancing the game. It might be that the experience level of the Russians is still too low. It doesn't make sense to me that the experience levels of Romanians and Hungarians in 1941 is higher than Russian units.

[AlvaroSousa]

Russian units were terrible on many levels. It wasn't the individual soldier, it was everything else. The Russians really didn't get better till late 1942.

Stalin interfered.
Local commanders were terrified of defying or executing orders.
Lack of ammo
Lack of equipment
Organization was poor
Commander pool was purged in 1937

You can compare that to the war in the Ukraine. The USSR has 10x the military capacity of Ukraine and now they are losing. Lot's of factors go into that.

As for the blitz in mud and rain yea you do have a point there it should be more to move through the hex. I will add this to the list.

[AlvaroSousa]

As for the game overall. When 2 players are learning playing the Axis is easier. Once both players are experienced playing the Allies is easier.

[canuckgamer]

An additional thought, maybe the infiltrator specialty should only be applied against units defending in non rugged terrain. Since armour only gets it's 3% retreat bonus against clear terrain hexes the infiltrator bonus should be the same. What about the 1 op cost for an advance only being applied when the advance is in to a non rugged hex on top increasing the op cost in weather such as heavy rain?

In regards to the Russian getting higher efficiency in late 1942, the only way they can increase their efficiency is by combat. Seems to me that they can only conduct limited attacks until 1943 so they would have to survive continuous German attacks to increase their efficiency. I assume that built units appearing in 1943 do not start with a higher efficiency level.

I also think that the Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians are over rated in this game. Their morale especially the first two and the Italians in Russia were rock bottom. In Operation Uranus the Russian attacks were against the parts of the front held by these Axis allies which immediately collapsed.

[AlvaroSousa]

The Russians also get an increase defending in experience. All they have to do is fight.

I'll think about the the minors. I think they start at 40% Not sure.

[generalfdog]

Infiltrator ability is fine the way it is, and so are the Russians once you learn them they are very hard to beat. You don't want just infiltrator, the best offensive set up is infiltrator, engineer and heavy artillery.

[kklemmick]

The infiltrator ability is definitely my favorite. Getting those retreats is key in so many situations.

That said, I've not experienced the same thing being described here. In all my games so far the Russians are pretty capable of stopping offensives in the winter as long as they don't leave crappy troops in the line of fire. A 2 strength infantry unit is actually a liability in many cases; you're better off leaving the hex vacant and having the enemy pay 3-4 movement points to just occupy it (as opposed to 1 to attack and 1 to occupy).

I do overall find that the Germanys are a little overpowered though. I've not played a game yet where there wasn't a successful invasion of England and where the Allies held onto the Middle East. Sure, they can take this all back by '43, but in my experience it's just not possible to hold onto Africa/Middle East if you have a half decent German player. In my current game as the Germans I was able to get Spain into the war (due to a limited invasion of England) as well as Turkey (due to taking Baku in '41). This isn't because the Allied player is bad, it's just that they don't have enough to stop the Germans until the USSR comes into the war.

[AlvaroSousa]

What I can tell you about this game over the last 3 years is that players are always finding different ways to play. Before everyone took experience for the specialty. Now they like infiltrator.

I try to balance everything so it is an exchange based on your situation.

I am still enjoying WarPlan after 3 years and I made the game.

[PanzerMike]

I always take the Elite specialty. Am I missing something? The increase in causing retreat is just 5 percent. Is that significant enough to matter?

[Nirosi]

Well, it does apply to each attack. And against the thought defensive positions requiring 5 attacks, it might kick in... or not... But if it does, it can make a big difference.

[AlvaroSousa]

I was fixing this bug today of the contested hex and it DOES count everything except the ZoC after a battle.

All the contested he removes is the ZoC.

If the hex has a road the road negates the terrain but doesn't the weather

A hex which there is a retreat with NO ROAD = terrain + weather + 1 (regardless of ZoC)
A hex which there is a retreat with A ROAD = 1 (road negates terrain) + weather + 1 (regardless of ZoC)
A hex with no attack = terrain (or 1 if road) + weather + ZoC (if there is any)

[ncc1701e]

Infiltrator ability is fine the way it is, and so are the Russians once you learn them they are very hard to beat. You don't want just infiltrator, the best offensive set up is infiltrator, engineer and heavy artillery.

Looks like after 2 years I still don’t get it. Did you publish a tactic 101 guide somewhere?

[ncc1701e]

I was fixing this bug today of the contested hex and it DOES count everything except the ZoC after a battle.

All the contested he removes is the ZoC.

If the hex has a road the road negates the terrain but doesn't the weather

A hex which there is a retreat with NO ROAD = terrain + weather + 1 (regardless of ZoC)
A hex which there is a retreat with A ROAD = 1 (road negates terrain) + weather + 1 (regardless of ZoC)
A hex with no attack = terrain (or 1 if road) + weather + ZoC (if there is any)

What are the possible values for the weather value depending on it? Because I can’t remember seeing anything else than 1 when advancing in a contested hex.

Also, crossing a river. When you are crossing a river to go in a contested hex (road or no road), is it counted somewhere that it is longer than without river?

[AlvaroSousa]

Weather costs are in the game.

? -> Weather

[ncc1701e]

Ok but just to be sure when I am reading the point raised above:

Secondly advances into the defender's hex in weather such as rain and heavy rain should cost more than 1 op.

Should we see something else that 1 advancing in a contested hex when there is heavy rain? I am not sure I have ever seen this.

[kklemmick]

Should we see something else that 1 advancing in a contested hex when there is heavy rain? I am not sure I have ever seen this.

I just tested this and weather does add to the movement cost of occupying a hex where the enemy retreated. So, in snow for example, it costs 2 movement points to enter that hex. The thing is, in most cases the unit occupying it will not have moved yet, so as long as it has 1 movement point remaining, it can still occupy the hex.

[stjeand]

True...the game is built to allow a unit to always move 1.

Perhaps IF they attack that flag could be turned off as that would count as a move?

[Nirosi]

True...the game is built to allow a unit to always move 1.

Perhaps IF they attack that flag could be turned off as that would count as a move?

I am not sure it is a good idea. Not been allowed to move at least one, could make the already small Soviet winter offensives even... smaller...

Since second line units would probably still have to go through a ZOC (in front the now empty hex; unless not a very straight line), those units will not bee able to cross the line and probably not even be able to enter the vacated hex anyway (and that is ok). But by removing the free advance however, the vacated hex would very often not be entered at all, and seem to me too harsh.

[ncc1701e]

Sorry but I have difficulties to understand:

A hex which there is a retreat with A ROAD = 1 (road negates terrain) + weather + 1 (regardless of ZoC)

Here is the situation. I am attacking and moving in a contested hex with a road. Weather is clear so 0. So the end result should be 1 (road) + 0 (clear weather) + 1 (regardless of ZoC) = 2 and I have 1.

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[ncc1701e]

And this one:

A hex which there is a retreat with NO ROAD = terrain + weather + 1 (regardless of ZoC)

Here is the situation. I am entering a contested hex with no road. So the end result should be 2 (hills) + 0 (clear weather) + 1 (regardless of ZoC) = 3 and I have 2.

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