Game Balance

[generalfdog]

My experience is limited, but I don't think the way to balance the German advantage lies in Russia. I think the German/Russian balance is just fine, even with the pathetic USSR experience. I have yet to play a game where the Germans accomplished even historical gains in Russia.

What I do see is completely unbalanced German gains everywhere else. I just started another PBEM game as the Germans with an experienced Allied player and I have once again easily cut off the allied army in the Middle East. Most likely I'll be able to do a Sea Lion invasion. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. What I think is required to balance the game is to give the UK stronger units early on. If they choose to use these to help France it really won't matter because they'll lose the Middle East which is a far greater long term threat to them.

I guess I wouldn't say that's unbalanced if Germany waits till 42 to attack USSR they should be able to make some gains but they will pay in 42 with a stronger Russia, I have almost never seem successful sea lions unless UK over commits in France i which case it should be. the only way I think Axis should be weakened is maybe less experience for Italy, other then that imho they are just fine

[stjeand]

My experience is limited, but I don't think the way to balance the German advantage lies in Russia. I think the German/Russian balance is just fine, even with the pathetic USSR experience. I have yet to play a game where the Germans accomplished even historical gains in Russia.

What I do see is completely unbalanced German gains everywhere else. I just started another PBEM game as the Germans with an experienced Allied player and I have once again easily cut off the allied army in the Middle East. Most likely I'll be able to do a Sea Lion invasion. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. What I think is required to balance the game is to give the UK stronger units early on. If they choose to use these to help France it really won't matter because they'll lose the Middle East which is a far greater long term threat to them.

Odd...I have rarely if ever lost in Africa...it has happened but once you figure out what to do the Germans and Italians can't do anything about it.
The UK is weaker because if they are to strong they can stop the war in France completely. I have done that quite a few times in the past. Game ended in 1940 with France still Allied and going into 1941...

Perhaps you need a new opponent that can cover the Middle East correctly?

[ncc1701e]

I understand that Alvaro wants a 1942 invasion to be possible thus the land experience at 30%. Reading a little the manual, looks like a little experience boost is indeed possible. We can even trigger it only if Germany invades in 1941 with lifespan=once.

What about this event? Plenty of games on going to see if it will be needed or not. This is giving an incentive for Germans to achieve their 1941 objectives and to the Russian player to fight. One city taken and it won't work.

// If Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad is still owned by USSR on January 1st, 1942. The Red army receives a one shot experience bonus.
$ModifyCountry
if_Date=1/1/1942
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
xyControl=187,77,Allies
xyControl=198,64,Allies
xyControl=213,52,Allies
lifespan=once
actionCountry=4
changeLandExperience=3
changeAirExperience=2
addReportTo=Allies
text=Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad are still owned by the Red army end of 1941. Based land experience +3%. Based air experience +2%.
$End

[AlvaroSousa]

1942 the Russians are just too strong. Germany won't be able to destroy them. They can hurt them though.

Yes that script looks right.

You can set the USSR as

if_Alliance=neutral
at the right date. That is all you would need.

[canuckgamer]

In our current game it is June 19 1942 and there is a huge hole between Stalingrad and Voronezh and it is only turn 2 of their summer offensive. There are only about half a dozen Russian units left positioned from Stalingrad to Rostov. Leningrad was cutoff in the winter and taken in May.

Every German armour and mech except for one has the infiltrator specialty. The formula used by the Germans over and over and again is ground strikes, followed by armour attacks. The Russians retreat very easily even when given the hold order. German armour then moves through and a number of Russian units are surrounded. I would say that about 90% of Russian casualties in this game were a result of being cutoff and consequently out of supply. The combat log of the last German turn is typical, three Russian corps that were cutoff surrendered. The strength points were 25, 27, and 32. Once a hole is punched through the Russian line they can't fill it because their movement allowance is only 5, even for their tanks and mech. The Russians have lost 1681 land strength points.

The Germans breakdown a number of corps to divisions which hold the sections of the line away from where they are advancing. In this game about half dozen divisions make up the German line in the north. Even though there are Russian 36 strength armies adjacent the Russians can't get odds better than 1-1 because most of them are at an experience level of 30%.

I expect that the Axis will now move south to capture the oilfields.

[AlvaroSousa]

#1 are the Allies sending max PP to the Soviets?
#2 the Allies should be invading somewhere if the situation is this bad. Or at the least strat bombing.

[canuckgamer]

Yes, I have been sending the max to the Russians. The Russians are building one infantry army every turn. In fact I have built nothing but infantry corps and armies with the Russians since the start of Barbarossa as they are always short units.

I invaded Morocco about two turns after the USA entered the war and took all three ports on the Atlantic coast. However it is stalemated at hexes 133,18 and 133,19 where there is a narrow pass from the mountains to the sea. Last game I invaded mainland Europe in 1942 to try and take the pressure off the Russians. In this game I have also started an all out offensive about 5 hexes west of Alexandria trying to attrition the German and Italian units. Taking heavy losses with the UK but my forces are larger.

Early in the game I took Corsica so I based a UK bomber there and have been strat bombing Italian production. I have a UK strat bomber in England that has been strat bombing since the spring of 42. I was targeting oil. The German response was to base a fighter and deploy 6 AA in almost all the oil hexes (two only have 4 AA) so he obviously came to the same conclusion as me, reducing German oil has a more signficant effect than production points. I have a UK and a USA strat bomber in the queue.

[AlvaroSousa]

Who are you playing? Ubermensch German?

[ncc1701e]

Who are you playing? Ubermensch German?

That's my standard PBEM experience that is described by @canuckgamer. With 283 MM sunk in his above Casualties report, not sure the LL is coming at full rate to USSR.

[ncc1701e]

Again, why people disband Soviet air units? To get the production points that the soviets are lacking. And this is not enough.

[ncc1701e]

In my current game I had more Russian units and the Germans weaker at the start of the summer of 42 than last game. There was no separation from the Axis units as I thought I was strong enough to turn it in to a slugfest but boy was I ever wrong. Along with dropping a couple of German paratroopers my line in the south around Rostov disappeared in one turn. The mobility of the panzers along with their high experience level makes them lethal and the Russians with their low movement rates can't close holes. If this game turns out like the previous ones I am going to wait to see if there are any significant changes to help the Russians before starting another PBEM.

The impression I get of War Plan is that there doesn't seem to be a turning point where Allied resources start to make a difference. Russia gets clobbered the first two years so it never becomes a two front war facing the Axis.

I just would like to add to your other comment that early 1942, this is normal that Germans can still pulverize your line. The main problem is that there are not enough Soviet units behind to recover.

[ncc1701e]

Yes, I have been sending the max to the Russians. The Russians are building one infantry army every turn. In fact I have built nothing but infantry corps and armies with the Russians since the start of Barbarossa as they are always short units.

Yes and this sentence is important. My experience is that you can buy one infantry army every turn. But nothing more. There are no PP left for much needed upgrade and repair on existing units. We can keep 30% experience quality but quantity is then missing. Just reducing the price of infantry armies to 150 PP like what is done for Soviet air force would give quantities of low quality land units. The solution to Soviets « are always short units ».

Where are the players saying the Russians are good as of now? How do you manage to keep your units? Do you survive early Barbarossa? Do you survive early Case Blue? Are you disbanding a lot or are you trying to improve your existing on map units? Was it before or after Alvaro has fixed the disband half army button that was giving full PP price?

I am curious because obviously I am missing something.

[AlvaroSousa]

I try to use ZoC blocking zones to prevent encirclement. I also mass up my armor/mech to protect a point in a line. Usually the Dnepier River line. Sometimes I set things to hold depending on the position.

I will make raids against German locations just to force them to move units back then I leave.

I buy strat bombers and hammer their production to force them to buy AA and air sups.

Be great if the 2 best players chime in here on this.

[Flaviusx]

Zoc defenses do not work, especially if the German has airborne. And in 1942 you are up against the wall in Moscow anyways, and if you play the Zoc game you are going to be pushed pack to the Volga.

Air raids are not especially profitable until bombers tech up to 44 and have escorts. The Germans can easily afford to spare a few fighters to cover the Ruhr in 41-2 and flak will chew up those early bombers.

Dieppe style raids just get curbstomped.

The *only* thing that works is the Allies pushing hard and fast in the Med and getting ahead of schedule there and putting Italy in real danger of an early surrender, which forces a pretty major commitment of German forces to the Med. (France is not nearly so dangerous for Germany in 1942, the Allies don't have a critical mass of forces large enough to do much there. Whereas knocking out Italy early is very possible if the British push hard in 1941 and then the American reinforce in 1942 ASAP.)

In other words, you have to play very ahistorically to make this work. The Western Allies are plenty strong...but the Soviets are too weak. This imbalance has existed for well over a year, and is a product of the unecessary nerf to Soviet experience and mobility. The eastern front was tolerably balanced with 35% base experience and the mobility gearing up in early 42. It's the Western allies who are too strong and can work up a head of steam in the Med. The game needs to flip this entirely, and nerf the Western Allies a bit and buff the Soviets to get something more historical.

[ncc1701e]

In other words, you have to play very ahistorically to make this work. The Western Allies are plenty strong...but the Soviets are too weak. This imbalance has existed for well over a year, and is a product of the unecessary nerf to Soviet experience and mobility. The eastern front was tolerably balanced with 35% base experience and the mobility gearing up in early 42. It's the Western allies who are too strong and can work up a head of steam in the Med. The game needs to flip this entirely, and nerf the Western Allies a bit and buff the Soviets to get something more historical.

Latest patch has considerably reduced the size of UK army in 1939 / 1940. I am playing three PBEM as Allies right now. My BEF expeditionary force will be very limited, I prefer to defend Egypt. Battle of France is about to begin.

[Flaviusx]

Glad to hear the Western Allies have been taken down a peg or two. That did need to happen.

[MagicMissile]

Zoc defenses do not work, especially if the German has airborne. And in 1942 you are up against the wall in Moscow anyways, and if you play the Zoc game you are going to be pushed pack to the Volga.

Air raids are not especially profitable until bombers tech up to 44 and have escorts. The Germans can easily afford to spare a few fighters to cover the Ruhr in 41-2 and flak will chew up those early bombers.

Dieppe style raids just get curbstomped.

The *only* thing that works is the Allies pushing hard and fast in the Med and getting ahead of schedule there and putting Italy in real danger of an early surrender, which forces a pretty major commitment of German forces to the Med. (France is not nearly so dangerous for Germany in 1942, the Allies don't have a critical mass of forces large enough to do much there. Whereas knocking out Italy early is very possible if the British push hard in 1941 and then the American reinforce in 1942 ASAP.)

In other words, you have to play very ahistorically to make this work. The Western Allies are plenty strong...but the Soviets are too weak. This imbalance has existed for well over a year, and is a product of the unecessary nerf to Soviet experience and mobility. The eastern front was tolerably balanced with 35% base experience and the mobility gearing up in early 42. It's the Western allies who are too strong and can work up a head of steam in the Med. The game needs to flip this entirely, and nerf the Western Allies a bit and buff the Soviets to get something more historical.

The UK is pretty much tied up to defend Egypt. The BoA take so much resources so hard to get any major landing ship building going before 42. So I think Western allies are in a pretty good spot. I also think 1941 in the east plays out pretty nicely now but I absolutely think the Soviets could use some 1942 onwards love. As it is I agree the western allies have to do something drastic to help the Soviets in 1942 speeding up the historical timeline if they can because the Soviets are too weak.

/MM

[AlvaroSousa]

One of the balancing issues is if the Germans play sort of historical or just decide to go all out against the USSR.

Historical meaning building subs, and attacking Egypt, Greece..... compared to dumping every production point into a 1941 Barbarossa.

In the game World in Flames (WiF) this is also an issue that forces the Allies to act drastically if they do.

Only way I could think to incentivize the German player is to gimmick the game. Reward building a variety of units instead of a string of single units, armor/mech, lets say. I hate gimmicking.

One issue I do have is the collapse of Germany late in the war. It can happen real fast.

In WiF they did a good job of maintaining an Axis line to 1945. One of the best games I played got to the last impulse of the last turn and came down to 3 die rolls who won the game. But it is a slug fest or attrition.

I wish there was a way I could collect data on all the multiplayer games and have it sent back to me. I could pop it in a database and compare players. Then I could see skill levels and figure out where balances are.

[ncc1701e]

Yes, you need data. I will try to provide some in my incoming AAR. Usually I am facing all in Barbarossa early 1941.

[muptomod]

Taking another poll on if everyone feels the game is balanced to see if anything has to be tweaked.

As everyone should know balancing a game like this is very difficult and it takes time. We make small adjustments as we go to make sure as many games as possible gets completed on the last turn of 1945 assuming skills are equal. I feel those games are the best games as the excitement last till the end like a good book.

Are you interested in downloadable titles