Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front

[ncc1701e]

And compared to Germans corps?

[Nirosi]

Will not be even close because of the experience. I only compared for equal experience. Very few allied units will reach German experience; either Western allied or Soviets. Maybe late in the war...

But at equal experience, yes they (soviets) will probably be better because of the extra 20% size.

I could understand making unit cheaper because of equipment, but not because of starting experience. For two reasons : 1-that would cancel a lot of what was behind the reasons to have different national experience and 2-it would mean that all non-German land units should be cheaper than the Germans... as all have the same difference...

My biais would be to be very cautious with that as it could possibly cause problems late game when Germany can usually crumble very fast already for games reaching 1944-45. And as I said, seems to me that they already are cheaper de facto.

[Nirosi]

You got me curious...

At 1944 tech (assault) with experience in bracket in open terrain.

Soviet Army : 16-18 (65%)
UK/US corps : 14-15 (60%)
German corps : 16-18 (70%)

[generalfdog]

Sorry guys I have been having the opposite problem I can't remember the last game where Germany even achieved historical results let alone crushed USSR, and I have have had a few games where Germany is losing a year or more early!

[ncc1701e]

Sorry guys I have been having the opposite problem I can't remember the last game where Germany even achieved historical results let alone crushed USSR, and I have have had a few games where Germany is losing a year or more early!

So we are back to a skill problem. Some people can resist, see encirclement coming. I am sure you are retreating when you see them coming. Are you playing with ZOCs?

Some people don't see them and gets 10 armies destroyed in few turns. And once done, there is nothing behind. Thus, the feeling of frustration. Where are the hordes of Soviets?

Everything depends on Barbarossa. If your air force is used and decimated in 1941, it won't be there in 1942. You don't have the PP to repair it in 1942 because you need more land units. This is a personal experience. So, now, don't use air force in 1941. If your land forces are also decimated in 1941, you won't have the PP to repair and upgrade them in 1942 because you need more land units.

This is a skill problem but if only 50% of the players can do it, you will lose 50% of the players.

Perhaps a more simpler solution that won't break totally the balance; this is to keep the based experience to 30%. This is to keep the actual cost of Soviet army. But, since players need more land units to reform a line, this is just to add 5 more Soviet full armies, with an arrival date, in the Deployment queue.

I am thinking of the Shock Armies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... ock_armies

In fact, this is just normal Soviet armies at 30% experience - Assault 1939 nothing more. But their arrival dates are very interesting because this is the time when the Soviets are having a hard time to buy new units:
1st Shock Army - Arrival 25/11/1941
2nd Shock Army - Arrival 25/12/1941
3rd Shock Army - Arrival 25/12/1941
4th Shock Army - Arrival 25/12/1941
5th Shock Army - Arrival 09/12/1942

[MagicMissile]

Sorry guys I have been having the opposite problem I can't remember the last game where Germany even achieved historical results let alone crushed USSR, and I have have had a few games where Germany is losing a year or more early!

So we are back to a skill problem. Some people can resist, see encirclement coming. I am sure you are retreating when you see them coming. Are you playing with ZOCs?

Some people don't see them and gets 10 armies destroyed in few turns. And once done, there is nothing behind. Thus, the feeling of frustration. Where are the hordes of Soviets?

Everything depends on Barbarossa. If your air force is used and decimated in 1941, it won't be there in 1942. You don't have the PP to repair it in 1942 because you need more land units. This is a personal experience. So, now, don't use air force in 1941. If your land forces are also decimated in 1941, you won't have the PP to repair and upgrade them in 1942 because you need more land units.

This is a skill problem but if only 50% of the players can do it, you will lose 50% of the players.

Perhaps a more simpler solution that won't break totally the balance; this is to keep the based experience to 30%. This is to keep the actual cost of Soviet army. But, since players need more land units to reform a line, this is just to add 5 more Soviet full armies, with an arrival date, in the Deployment queue.

I am thinking of the Shock Armies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... ock_armies

In fact, this is just normal Soviet armies at 30% experience - Assault 1939 nothing more. But their arrival dates are very interesting because this is the time when the Soviets are having a hard time to buy new units:
1st Shock Army - Arrival 25/11/1941
2nd Shock Army - Arrival 25/12/1941
3rd Shock Army - Arrival 25/12/1941
4th Shock Army - Arrival 25/12/1941
5th Shock Army - Arrival 09/12/1942

I think that is not a bad idea. And give the Soviets back their 7 op mech units. That might be enough and worth trying out I think.

/MM

[MagicMissile]

Hello,

I will try to add my 2 cents try to explain what I do which seems to work for me relatively well.

This is a pretty comprehensive guide to what I do so if you want to learn on your own or don’t want to be colored by what I do don’t read this post.

Before the War.

I will show my setup in my AAR with Nirosi. Since Nirosi can read it I have to wait with posting it a bit longer. This is kind of my standard setup nowadays. No secrets now you know everything and can counteract my every move . I can adjust a little bit depending on if I can see where the concentration of Axis mech units are.

I build one inf corps every turn until 1941 tech is researched then I buy as many as I can afford. Sometimes I save enough to build maybe 3-4 armies once the war begins and sometimes I spend all on corps. I set aside approximately 2000 pps to upgrade and reinforce all mech units except the 3-5 bad ones.

I don’t build any armour any longer, I used to, nor do I build any paras or anything fancy and I dont spend anything on the airforce. This should give you an army in the 2100-2200 size.

War starts. 1941 Summer

Max LL from UK and later USA of course.

I don’t build any new units 100% of the economy on reinforce and upgrades. I let the computer do what it does. I am too lazy to micro. If one like to micro one should probably turn off upgrades and maybe only do reinforce and choose selectively what units should get an upgrade in tech, arguably the ones with decent experience.

I usually turn off reinforcement on all corps only mech units and some specific important units get a green cross. Like defenders of Leningrad for example. As soon as a corps converts to an army I allow reinforcement and upgrades and turn on the priority button.

I don’t set any units on hold. Except some specific areas. Typically Riga, The Swamp line south of Leningrad sometimes behind rivers and especially cities behind rivers. But 95% of all units are not on hold. We want them to retreat to force the Axis spend Ops to advance if they want to attack again. It is very frustrating at least I am seeing a 10-1 on a corps result in 1 or 2 step losses and it just retreats away.

I also dont use garrison mode at start. Only around Leningrad do I use it. 2 move is too slow and those units will not be able to avoid being encicled. With 5 move you can almost always run away.

Depending on the situation I retreat at least 1 sometimes 2 or more hexrows every turn. Again to make the Axis having to spend Ops to advance into your Zoc and to stay out of reach of the German infantry as much as possible so that the mech units will have to do the most of the attacking and hopefully drain their efficiency.

Where there are German mech units in number try to have a zoc line 2 rows behind the frontline. A complete line is better but if units are lacking 1 every 2 hexes will have to do. To try and limit any breakthroughs and pocket attempts.

I do not use the Soviet airforce at all summer 41 well sometimes I do but it usually don’t end well flying with 35% xp and 39 tech airplanes. I try to do the slightly gamey thing and bomb the Finns. But even that is not very efficient. I will show a game below that I play now in that game I have bombed the Finns 2 times with 6 units so like 12 attacks per turn and winter 41 xp was up to 38% so not very impressive.

1941 Autumn/winter

Hopefully when September ends Moscow should be in your hands still and hopefully Leningrad too and your army is still alive and and digital Stalin has not executed you yet for incompetence . As a guideline I would say if your army size is below 1800 you are possibly in trouble if it is above 2000 I think you have done well.

As bad weather starts I turn off the reinforcement budget. Set it to 0. And start building new units specifically inf armies. With lend lease you should be able to build a fair amount. Like 1,5 per turn during October-Januari. Should be around 12 maybe little more maybe little less. In February I turn on economy to 100% reinforce again. Hopefully your damaged units will fill up nicely and together with what you have built and the Siberians you will hopefully have an army of at least 2500 strength more is obviously better.

Don’t overdo the winter offensive too much. You don’t have to reach 50%. You will get there early 42 anyway. If you can get to 47 that should be good enough I think. If you are daring you could try and use the airforce a little bit during the winter but again I prefer to have it alive in 42.

1942 Summer.
I don’t really have much advice here. I haven’t played 42 in a PBEM in along time. I do know the Germans are awfully strong with perfect supply and with rail lines being able to supply endless amount of units they can form a panzer ball typically on the fields south of Moscow and wreak a lot of havoc.

Hopefully you will see where the Axis are sending most of his mech units and wherever that is you need a double line and maybe if you can even a 3 zoc line with a unit every 2 hexes. You can also try and preempt the offensive and start retreat a little before the offensive even starts. Try to keep your best units in reserve and possibly you can counterattack and open a pocket (here I must say I think the USSR should get 7 op mech units in the spring of 42 as they used to have, at least give them a chance of a decent counterattack if the Germans overextend).

Be prepared to retreat a lot and most likely if you haven’t lost Moscow already there is a big chance you will in 42. There will probably be some surrounds but hopefully not too many and as long as your army stays in decent size like 2200+ there is always a hope of a comeback.

Since 42 is the important year possibly it is now the time to try and sacrifice your airforce and if you survive in decent shape you can rebuild it in 43 and hopefully 44 onwards it will be of decent quality.

Below is a screenshot of the only PBEM that I have played using the strategy above. This game is not a typical game. My opponent said it was a bit of an experiment. He launched Barbarossa with 20! German mech/arm units and the complete German and Italian airforce. Not going to lie I thought digital Stalin was in huge trouble. I am not sure if it was the build or the attack itself that was the experiment as all of the 20 mech units were hurled in a gigantic Napoleonic thrust towards Moscow alone not caring anything about Leningrad or South of the swamps. But that was maybe a mistake I think as I only needed a single line of corps in the south and north and could throw all my units in front of Moscow. I think only 2-3 mech south of the Swamp would have made a big difference. As it is as you can see Moscow and Leningrad hold so far and in the south the Axis advance is slightly worse than normal.

It is now January 42. My army size is 2500 and with reinforcements still to come and reinforcing the damaged units I hope to reach 2900+ when May 42 starts. That means I could lose 20 armies during 42 and still be at 2200 size. So while I think this looks pretty good for me I am still worried of 42. I expect to have to retreat somewhat and possibly lose Moscow. I might update here later to show how it plays out.

Ryssland 42.png (1.55 MiB) Viewed 876 times

Hope I did not reveal too much and that this info could be helpful if anyone is struggling. At least some food for thought .

/MM

[Nirosi]

But, since players need more land units to reform a line, this is just to add 5 more Soviet full armies, with an arrival date, in the Deployment queue.

Hum... very interesting idea... Worth a try. Would be in line with the baby steps approach too...

[ncc1701e]

Here is a screenshot of the eastern front in our PBEM game and as you can see another 10 Russian armies surrounded. It's only the 3rd turn of the Axis summer offensive and even though the Russians were stronger than last game at the start of the first clear weather turn the result is even worse than last game.

First, I have been there before in 1941. Now, I am better at defending in 1941. But, 1942 is indeed very hard.

Couple of comments regarding all your screenshots.

First Air warfare:

Right now, your Soviet air force is at 120 steps. Before July 3rd, 1942, you have lost 164 steps. The initial Soviet air force is at 260 steps. Looks like 24 steps where used for repairs. But, more than half has been destroyed already.

So, first thing, in 1941 and early 1942, don't use full support on all your Soviet air force. Before using it, check where is the Axis air force. Check the chances to be intercepted or not by only one or several planes.

Use them only in case of emergency, otherwise don't use them. Even if you think that, don't. They don't stand a chance. You should keep them untouched and upgraded to 1941 level minimum before thinking of using them widely.

You can't use PP to repair them. Keep these PP for land units building.

[Nirosi]

Hope I did not reveal too much and that this info could be helpful if anyone is struggling. At least some food for thought .

You revealed just enough to scare me in both our games now

[ncc1701e]

Depending on the situation I retreat at least 1 sometimes 2 or more hexrows every turn. Again to make the Axis having to spend Ops to advance into your Zoc and to stay out of reach of the German infantry as much as possible so that the mech units will have to do the most of the attacking and hopefully drain their efficiency.

Where there are German mech units in number try to have a zoc line 2 rows behind the frontline. A complete line is better but if units are lacking 1 every 2 hexes will have to do. To try and limit any breakthroughs and pocket attempts.

/MM

I would be super interested by a screenshot of this in the Tactics 101 thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=390907

I assume I have already covered the first part but if you would like to comment more...

[ncc1701e]

Here is a screenshot of the eastern front in our PBEM game and as you can see another 10 Russian armies surrounded. It's only the 3rd turn of the Axis summer offensive and even though the Russians were stronger than last game at the start of the first clear weather turn the result is even worse than last game.

Second Land warfare:

You can't stop the Germans in open terrain in 1941 and early 1942.
You can't stop the Germans in open terrain in 1941 and early 1942.
You can't stop the Germans in open terrain in 1941 and early 1942.

The Soviets start with 1180 steps. Before July 3rd, 1942, you have already lost 1841 steps.
Despite this, your Soviet army is still at 2215 steps.

So your production is there.

In your first screenshot, I see you are using a lot the hold command. I would refrain from doing this.
Again, a low experienced entrenched unit won't stop the Germans in 1941, 1942.
And, instead of dying, a retreating unit obliges the Germans to attack again and again losing their effectiveness.

Retreat is the key but not so much. Apply this rule: Always one hex between my units and the enemy units except on rivers. The goal is to make the enemy army entering your ZOC. It reduces their movement points and, as such, their effectiveness each turn.

Don't use garrison also. You will be encircled without possibilities to escape.

Your main goal, at this stage, is not to destroy the enemy. It is to reduce their effectiveness so that they can't continue to advance.

[Flaviusx]

Adding more armies is not the answer. And these Zoc games going into 1942 mean that you are going to get hustled all the way back to the Volga. Look, we don't have to guess here. For 6 months the game had earlier mech upgrapes and the slightly higher efficiency rating -- and it was fine. The problems began once this was changed and have never gone away and never will. What this meant was the Germans had to actually face counterattacks in 1942 while advancing. As things currently stand, the Soviets have to play this completely passive game right into 1943. Losing those early 7 mp mobile corps was a game changer in particular. Merely throwing in more slow units is just feeding more meat into the panzer pac man.

People are overthinking this and making it way more complicated than it needs be. Of *course* the Red Army is going to get butchered if it moves at 5 for two full years. Speed is life and the Red Army is roadkill until this movement penalty starts going away. All these Zoc games people are recommending here is just another way of saying this. It's a Rube Goldberg answer to lack of mobility. Run away! But you do that for 2 full campaign seasons and the Soviets are going to be in a deep, deep hole.

[MagicMissile]

Depending on the situation I retreat at least 1 sometimes 2 or more hexrows every turn. Again to make the Axis having to spend Ops to advance into your Zoc and to stay out of reach of the German infantry as much as possible so that the mech units will have to do the most of the attacking and hopefully drain their efficiency.

Where there are German mech units in number try to have a zoc line 2 rows behind the frontline. A complete line is better but if units are lacking 1 every 2 hexes will have to do. To try and limit any breakthroughs and pocket attempts.

/MM

I would be super interested by a screenshot of this in the Tactics 101 thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=390907

I assume I have already covered the first part but if you would like to comment more...

I saw the thread, well done. I will see if I can add something.

/MM

[MagicMissile]

Adding more armies is not the answer. And these Zoc games going into 1942 mean that you are going to get hustled all the way back to the Volga. Look, we don't have to guess here. For 6 months the game had earlier mech upgrapes and the slightly higher efficiency rating -- and it was fine. The problems began once this was changed and have never gone away and never will. What this meant was the Germans had to actually face counterattacks in 1942 while advancing. As things currently stand, the Soviets have to play this completely passive game right into 1943. Losing those early 7 mp mobile corps was a game changer in particular. Merely throwing in more slow units is just feeding more meat into the panzer pac man.

People are overthinking this and making it way more complicated than it needs be. Of *course* the Red Army is going to get butchered if it moves at 5 for two full years. Speed is life and the Red Army is roadkill until this movement penalty starts going away. All these Zoc games people are recommending here is just another way of saying this. It's a Rube Goldberg answer to lack of mobility. Run away! But you do that for 2 full campaign seasons and the Soviets are going to be in a deep, deep hole.

I do not disagree. I think giving back 7 op april 42 is the first step and maybe the only step needed. But we have the game we have for now so then one must retreat to Kazan and talk zocs

/Mm

[MagicMissile]

Hope I did not reveal too much and that this info could be helpful if anyone is struggling. At least some food for thought .

You revealed just enough to scare me in both our games now

Haha you will do fine. Just not too fine I hope

[AlvaroSousa]

Reading all this......

#1 I agree it isn't a units problem
#2 it isn't an experience problem
#3 it is a steam roll problem
#4 as for the poll on balance the Axis seem to be in the lead
#5 Since I made a change in the Battle of France due to UK armor units it makes the Germans better prepared for Barbarossa.

So I will go with Flav's a MM's suggestion. It's a small fine tuning that will make a difference. We start from there. Scenario fixes are easier to add to the latest patch than game mechanic fixes I will add this to the new update.

April 1942 Soviet armor and mech will get 7 Ops instead of Oct 1942.
Mechs will do a partial upgrade in April with stats, then a full one in October

//USSR Increase Mech OPs and stats
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=4/1/1942
targetCountry=4
lifespan=tillTrigger
unitID=9
stats=30,4,3,2,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,3,6,7,1,130,300,2,1
text=Soviet forces continue the reorganization of their armies. They study the German blitzkrieg and improve their own mobile warfare doctrines. Soviet mechanized and armor corps operation points increase to 7.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

//USSR Increase Mech OPs and stats
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=10/1/1942
targetCountry=4
lifespan=tillTrigger
unitID=9
stats=30,4,3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,3,6,7,1,130,300,2,1
text=Soviet forces continue the reorganization of their armies. They study the German blitzkrieg and improve their own mobile warfare doctrines. Soviet mechanized and armor corps operation points increase to 7.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

//USSR Increase Mech OPs
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=3/1/1943
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=9
stats=30,4,3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,3,6,9,1,130,300,2,1
text=Soviet forces have learned how to maximize their armored formations from the engagements with the Germans. Their powerful armored and mechanized corps are now as mobile as their adversaries in the field of battle. Soviet mechanized and armor corps operation points increase to 9.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

//USSR Increase Armor OPs
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=4/1/1942
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=10
stats=30,3,1,4,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,3,7,7,1,200,360,2,1
$End

//USSR Increase Armor OPs
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=3/1/1943
targetCountry=4
lifespan=tillTrigger
unitID=10
stats=30,3,1,4,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,3,7,9,1,200,360,2,1
$End

[ncc1701e]

Adding more armies is not the answer. And these Zoc games going into 1942 mean that you are going to get hustled all the way back to the Volga. Look, we don't have to guess here. For 6 months the game had earlier mech upgrapes and the slightly higher efficiency rating -- and it was fine. The problems began once this was changed and have never gone away and never will. What this meant was the Germans had to actually face counterattacks in 1942 while advancing. As things currently stand, the Soviets have to play this completely passive game right into 1943. Losing those early 7 mp mobile corps was a game changer in particular. Merely throwing in more slow units is just feeding more meat into the panzer pac man.

People are overthinking this and making it way more complicated than it needs be. Of *course* the Red Army is going to get butchered if it moves at 5 for two full years. Speed is life and the Red Army is roadkill until this movement penalty starts going away. All these Zoc games people are recommending here is just another way of saying this. It's a Rube Goldberg answer to lack of mobility. Run away! But you do that for 2 full campaign seasons and the Soviets are going to be in a deep, deep hole.

I do not disagree. I think giving back 7 op april 42 is the first step and maybe the only step needed. But we have the game we have for now so then one must retreat to Kazan and talk zocs

/Mm

I agree with you on the mobility Flaviusx. When Russia gets the 7 OPs, it is like a breath of fresh air to make local counterattacks and prevent the Germans from doing anything silly. Today they do too many bold things because they know they can't be worried.

[Nirosi]

April 1942 Soviet armor and mech will get 7 Ops instead of Oct 1942.
Mechs will do a partial upgrade in April with stats, then a full one in October

Many thanks Alvaro.

I think that almost all players agree that this is certainly worth trying. Could very well be enough (if only to force the Germans to be more cautious). We will see soon....

[Flaviusx]

Thank goodness. This might even get me playing the game again. I had pretty much given up on it.

With the Western Allies now tuned down and the Soviets getting back some of their lost mobility the game is looking the best it has been for a very long time.

Ideally we'd also get the old 35% base experience, but the mobility is even more important and maybe that is good enough.