[WAD] Questineble performance Pl-15

[Swant]

Pl-15 performs significantly worse than AIM-120D

1294.1

[Dimitris]

Not sure what you define as "performs significantly worse".

Both missiles can make that tail-chase shot (this is why they were fired).

The PL-15 has a higher max speed (M5.05 vs M4.62) and a higher nominal max range (108nm vs 86.4nm). However, the AIM-120D has the critical advantage of a long-burn rocket motor, optimized for a greater NEZ. The PL-15 has a short-burn boost-coast motor (the rocket motor's name "Dual-Pulse Rocket Motor" is a left-over typo), similar to pre-D AMRAAM versions.

Because of the long-burn motor, the AIM-120 has significantly higher "average" speed-to-target, which is why it quickly overtakes the PL-15 after the latter's burnout, and reaches the target first.

While we are aware of persistent rumors about the PL-15 having a dual-pulse motor similar to the AIM-120D, AFAIK this has not been confirmed by any reliable sources. IISS states that the PL-15 has a high speed-optimized boost-sustain-coast motor: https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-bal ... peed-kills

[Swant]

[mithrilsword]

Did some campaign run and tested with Taiwanese F-16, found it often outrun PL-15 fired at NEZ.
Should the DB further update NEZ so it fires at even closer range, or its just normal to outrun missile fired at NEZ?

[Dimitris]

Did some campaign run and tested with Taiwanese F-16, found it often outrun PL-15 fired at NEZ.
Should the DB further update NEZ so it fires at even closer range, or its just normal to outrun missile fired at NEZ?

See the first tweak here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390954

Against an unidentified target, you cannot know how fast they can go, so this vulnerability naturally exists.

[Tcao]

NEZ could be tricky. it is decided by target's current speed.

So my personal preference is to set the missile fired at 25%-30% of max range.


Edit:

Ooops, Just saw the tweak with the latest update
* TWEAK: When using NEZ missile shots, if the target is class-identified, use its known max speed-at-altitude as the NEZ reference speed instead of its current one (e.g. if shooting at a MiG-25R, even if he's currently subsonic, assume he'll turn tail and go to M3.2+ once he detects the missile).

That is a handy tweak.

[mithrilsword]

Tested after the tweak, PL-10 almost outrange PL-15.
Maybe some fine tuning still awaits?

[thewood1]

Tested after the tweak, PL-10 almost outrange PL-15.
Maybe some fine tuning still awaits?

WHat does almost out range mean? Does equal the range mean "almost outrange"? It would seem to be it out ranges or is close to the range of.

[mithrilsword]

Tested after the tweak, PL-10 almost outrange PL-15.
Maybe some fine tuning still awaits?

WHat does almost out range mean? Does equal the range mean "almost outrange"? It would seem to be it out ranges or is close to the range of.

Well, with PL-15 setted on NEZ fire, in several case my host skipped fire until it enters the range of PL-10 which sets on default firing range (and it catches the victim).

I should probably do more tests on powered range of PL-15 vs PL-10.

[Dimitris]

Well, with PL-15 setted on NEZ fire, in several case my host skipped fire until it enters the range of PL-10 which sets on default firing range (and it catches the victim).

This is consistent with my tests. Engaging an identified MiG-29 (current 520 kts, known max 920 kts) with AIM-7M (set to NEZ) and AIM-9M (set to default max), the Sidewinder fired before the Sparrow did.

This is just how much the NEZ logic can cripple your firing range, against a known high-performance target.

[thewood1]

To me, you always have to list the target and positions of the firer and the target. All the long range AAMs are built to hit at long range on a large low maneuvering targets. Its pretty well know if you search enough that long range becomes very short range quickly on a high maneuver target if you want anything close to a high probability hit.

[DmitriyBlade]

how much the NEZ logic can cripple your firing range, against a known high-performance target.

Maybe add agility of enemy jet for calculation of NEZ?
in warthunder i launch sparrow headon from tomcaty much farer for enemy's F-4, Mig-21 and quite close for Mirage 2000C-S5

[Tcao]

Not sure what you define as "performs significantly worse".

Both missiles can make that tail-chase shot (this is why they were fired).

The PL-15 has a higher max speed (M5.05 vs M4.62) and a higher nominal max range (108nm vs 86.4nm). However, the AIM-120D has the critical advantage of a long-burn rocket motor, optimized for a greater NEZ. The PL-15 has a short-burn boost-coast motor (the rocket motor's name "Dual-Pulse Rocket Motor" is a left-over typo), similar to pre-D AMRAAM versions.

Because of the long-burn motor, the AIM-120 has significantly higher "average" speed-to-target, which is why it quickly overtakes the PL-15 after the latter's burnout, and reaches the target first.

While we are aware of persistent rumors about the PL-15 having a dual-pulse motor similar to the AIM-120D, AFAIK this has not been confirmed by any reliable sources. IISS states that the PL-15 has a high speed-optimized boost-sustain-coast motor: https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-bal ... peed-kills

I am not sure what have been changed with the latest official update. Now PL-15 has much better performance compare to AIM-120D.

When facing a Mig-29, AIM-120D's NEZ range is 18nm. PL-15 is 40nm! In the DB entry PL-15's rocket fuel says to be 60s (could be wrong, I have turned off the CMO couple min ago so talking this from my memory. so it will keep at 2900kt for half of its flight.


Embrace yourself, people are going to outcry that the game is broken.

[thewood1]

Doesn't surprise me. The 15 is more commonly compared to the Meteor than the AMRAAM from a range perspective.

[Tcao]

as a China Stong! team member I would love to see PL-15 got some love and buff here. Finally PLAAF can dominate the sky and pew pew we can shoot down da evil america's paper plane!

But what happen now is contradict to what dimitris said back in Nov.

The PL-15 has a short-burn boost-coast motor (the rocket motor's name "Dual-Pulse Rocket Motor" is a left-over typo), similar to pre-D AMRAAM versions.

Because of the long-burn motor, the AIM-120 has significantly higher "average" speed-to-target, which is why it quickly overtakes the PL-15 after the latter's burnout, and reaches the target first.

What we see now is a 45nm NEZ range against Mig-29

PL-15 1.jpg (229.86 KiB) Viewed 2453 times

and its speed is still at 2900kt when it hits poor mig-29. There is still rocket fuel left in the missile, its speed has not even begin to bleed

PL-15 2.jpg (213.24 KiB) Viewed 2453 times

Here is the fuel qty from DB

PL-15 fuel.jpg (12.29 KiB) Viewed 2453 times

something is not right here

[Tcao]

BTW meteor has its own problem and I sent a report here

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=392358