Expeditionary Operations

sigs10 · Post by **sigs10** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:49 pm

I am a retired USN Submariner. That is my specialty, but I am trying to understand the Amphibious operations aspects. I have come across a few issues that are frustrating to scenario planning.

1. Submarines have no cargo capacity. I would like to be able to deploy SOF units, but I can't even install them on boats. I especially tested the Ohio SSGN and Jimmy Carter SSN(SOF) and was unable to mount any units. Meanwhile, the cargo database says I can load an entire four car locomotive on an Arliegh Burke DDG.
2. The Database is haphazard. There are large gaps in basic unit types and then over detailing in certain trivial units. There are units that have zero PAX that should have dozens of personnel. Then there are units that should have smaller sizes. For example, Force Recon and SEAL units come in sizes the smallest of which is 10. Meanwhile, the UH-1 helicopters have a loadout of (8x SEALS) so I am unable to load a SEAL team. There are some other units that could substitute for these smaller units but just make SEAL/FORECON fire teams of 4.
3. Amphibious vehicles (AAV) have no clear means of deploying directly from the mothership. They wind up being ferried like any other vehicle, which is self-defeating. Meanwhile, I had a scenario (Hot Tamales) where ground vehicles were driving across Gitmo Bay as if it didn't exist.
4. When units are deployed, they are grouped as one unit called Landing Detachment. Can they be deployed or built into normal combat units, renamed, and regrouped.
5. The cargo database is terrible for filtering. It only has one text filter, yet it has multiple columns. How about filtering by these columns and maybe a few more, like type (infantry, armor, artillery, supply, recce, etc.), Insertion capability (Paradrop (you have that, but break it up into static line, HALO, HAHO, etc.) Fast Rope, Amphibious Vehicle (AAV)), Size (fire team, Squad, Platoon, Company, Battalion, etc.)
6. Create a means to load templated configurations of cargo much like you have templates for Airbases and Battle Groups. Having to crack out a JP 3-02 to build out an ARG is a little crazy.
7. Have a catalog like you have for the other units that provide some descriptive of the unit plus a picture. Like you have for all the ships, aircraft, radars, and weapons.
8. When airborne units return from their initial insertion, they go back and commence refueling ops which could take over an hour. Instead have them take onboard the next group of troops to ferry and immediately sortie. Don't refuel until they are at Bingo.
9. This game is amazing and is the pinnacle of major force operations. But look at Cities; Skylines and allow user mod support. I have seen shortcomings in this game since it rolled out 8 years ago that if it allowed crowd source input it could grow by leaps and bounds.

BDukes · Post by **BDukes** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:30 pm

Sigs try the beta. Lots of updates.

M

kevinkins · Post by **kevinkins** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:36 pm

Not too sure about crowd sourcing and mods etc.. the developers are protective of the database which is at the heart of the sim. The combat mechanic requires coding and that is not public domain. Both are understandable. So, maybe contact the developers with your experience and perhaps consult behind the scenes on either the commercial, pro or both products. Enjoyed reading your post.

thewood1 · Post by **thewood1** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:39 pm

Crowd sourcing would be a disaster for this game. Harpoon tried it, it was a disaster, and its why we have CMO. It would be near impossible to come to a consensus on anything. And as stated, the value of the game is in the db. There is already a process in place for adding to the db.

Gunner98 · Post by **Gunner98** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:45 am

sigs10 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:49 pm
1. Submarines have no cargo capacity. I would like to be able to deploy SOF units, but I can't even install them on boats. I especially tested the Ohio SSGN and Jimmy Carter SSN(SOF) and was unable to mount any units. Meanwhile, the cargo database says I can load an entire four car locomotive on an Arliegh Burke DDG.

When designing a scenario there are three ways you can do cargo. 1) Using the cargo feature, which is not perfect but it works for many instances - but not fringe cases; 2) Lua scripting to make units spawn to an exact spot based on a trigger - i.e. SDV enters area, SOF spawns on the beach; or 3) Teleport, this is less exact than Lua but easier in many ways for a similar effect. Using Lua or Teleport gets around most of the issues you have in the OP.

I use all three in scenarios, depending on what I am trying to achieve. The best way to get frustrated is to try and make something work when it wasn't designed to do it, round peg, square hole etc. There is no point loading a locomotive on a DDG, you cannot do anything with it.

Check out the LIVE scenario 'Pole Positions', in that SOF are delivered from submarines. Several other instances as well.

ParachuteProne · Post by **ParachuteProne** » Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:13 pm

I would like to add one more thing. Infantry zones of control so that infantry units cannot just zip past/through other units in contact.

sigs10 · Post by **sigs10** » Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:08 pm

When did they do crowdsourcing with Harpoon? That game was archaic 20 years ago. I don't know how they would have done modding properly then. Steam has a workshop dedicated to facilitating modding. I remember making my own mods to files in other games 10-15 years ago and downloading some from sites like mod-db. This required them being placed in the installation folders and could potentially crash an app. Now, programs are built with mod bays that allow mods to installed as a plugin and can be easily removed. I just think if they are going with a bad experience from 20 years ago or even 10, that is imposing a unnecessary hurdle to development.

thewood1 · Post by **thewood1** » Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:54 pm

The way the db got hacked was an unplanned model similar to crowdsourcing. There were at least 20 different dbs floating around with scenarios that only worked with that specific db. It became quite a mess. You had to track down a db or a scenario and huge rifts formed between db builders, as well as the devs. Some of those dbs themselves worked similar to crowdsourcing. A distributed group would work on it. What was common is within those bd teams, rifts would form and a new db would cleave off to start a new development stream.

Dimitris · Post by **Dimitris** » Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:06 pm

ParachuteProne wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:13 pm I would like to add one more thing. Infantry zones of control so that infantry units cannot just zip past/through other units in contact.

You'll be pleased.

ParachuteProne · Post by **ParachuteProne** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:20 am

Dimitris wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:06 pm
ParachuteProne wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:13 pm I would like to add one more thing. Infantry zones of control so that infantry units cannot just zip past/through other units in contact.
You'll be pleased.

In that case I'll be extremely pleased

sigs10 · Post by **sigs10** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:59 pm

thewood1 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:54 pm The way the db got hacked was an unplanned model similar to crowdsourcing. There were at least 20 different dbs floating around with scenarios that only worked with that specific db. It became quite a mess. You had to track down a db or a scenario and huge rifts formed between db builders, as well as the devs. Some of those dbs themselves worked similar to crowdsourcing. A distributed group would work on it. What was common is within those bd teams, rifts would form and a new db would cleave off to start a new development stream.

And that is addressed in the new modding system. Lets look at Cities: Skylines. Assets can be added, but some require dependent assets. It will flag if a game is unstable if a mod is changed and notify if a startup configuration is unstable. Then that assets can be deactivated. The mods are contained in a centralized location to control the dissemination and addresses ownership of mods to curtail memetic mutation. Also, there was an incident a year ago someone was injecting malicious code. This was detected, all of that creator's products were deleted and they were banned.

thewood1 · Post by **thewood1** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:32 pm

And my point is...why bother?

sigs10 · Post by **sigs10** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:43 pm

thewood1 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:32 pm And my point is...why bother?

Because the the updates to this games have been glacial. For the amount of money that this game goes for and not until just a couple years ago was there any major update in the gameplay. I know this game is very data heavy and is doing some incredible data modelling but it is coming at a pace that is barely moving. Its very frustrating when you are building missions sets and there are controls in the window that do nothing and have done nothing for eight years. If they only only available remove them or grey them out. These are features that should have been addressed in 2015.

thewood1 · Post by **thewood1** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:34 pm

There have been db updates almost monthly, correct? The pace of change and updates is almost too fast.

thewood1 · Post by **thewood1** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:35 pm

The type of modding isn't going to help buttons not working as you want.

sigs10 · Post by **sigs10** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:06 pm

thewood1 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:35 pm The type of modding isn't going to help buttons not working as you want.

The developers are using up their time to do database updates that could be outsourced and then get a cursory review instead of devoting more time to feature integration and UI refinement.

thewood1 · Post by **thewood1** » Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:20 pm

They have specific people doing the db. It was the founding part of the devs. Those resources aren't interchangeable. Have you ever requested the changes you want to see in the db? You can add weapons, sensors, comms, etc. to almost any hull. You can even save them and reuse them.

Also, the support for lua is beyond almost any other game. You can come close to scripting out anything you want to do within the framework of the game.

Dimitris · Post by **Dimitris** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:07 pm

sigs10 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:43 pm Because the the updates to this games have been glacial.

Dimitris · Post by **Dimitris** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:41 pm

sigs10 · Post by **sigs10** » Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:24 pm

Dimitris,
Your updates are mostly lower level coding and database updates. Your game still looks like something built in the 1980's. You have done diddly squat for UI interface for this program and have many controls that have done nothing since this thing has rolled out. I have so much hope for this program that I have bought it twice once from Matrix and again from Steam. I have used the actual battle management software this game tries to simulate GCCS-J and CIDNE. We even had an integration into a classified version of Google Earth to run our predators drones through on SIPR. That was ten years ago. I just want something simple like the ability to lay an op area as an object so that it can be adjusted as a box and not have to dig through a morass of ref points all over the screen and then drag each point to make an update. Its not how we did on the real thing ten years ago and it annoying that you are doing this way. Trying to look like Harpoon 360 is getting old.

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