Fix the TB replacement system!

[juv95hrn]

Here are some surprises for you to absorb.

Germany sent many formations to the West to rest, refit and train for weeks and even months. "I dont like it", doesnt make the necessity to replicate this a flawed game design. The German logistical situation on the East Front was a nightmare. (Probably way worse than the game simulates). Re-equipping entire divisions on the frontline wasnt feasible at all, not matter how much a player wants it. Play HOI4 maybe instead?

Axis forces in the East increased up until 1943 or so. And even then the manpower pool wasnt empty until the end of the war. Loads of severly starved formations in 44-45 sounds about right to me.

From memory I believe Germany sustained around 50k losses per month, which was huge compared to the preiod before Barbarossa. If, as you say, Germany receives 15k per week (60k per month), this is hardly a flawed historical simulation result.

Since there is a working work-around to the problem, that is historically accurate, I dont really see the problem here.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Here are some surprises for you to absorb.

This sets the tone nicely.

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Germany sent many formations to the West to rest, refit and train for weeks and even months.

They did. In the span of 1941-1944, before the Allies invaded. Dont recall that the Germans were sending formations to refit in the West in 1945. Nor do I recall reading that more than 80% of German manpower was being sent West and that the Eastern Front was being left with scraps of manpower week after week when the Soviets were at the gates of Berlin.

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
"I dont like it", doesnt make the necessity to replicate this a flawed game design.

This is a flawed game design because it defies common sense as well as historical evidence. Not because I dont like it.

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Re-equipping entire divisions on the frontline wasnt feasible at all, not matter how much a player wants it.

Good thing that the refitting I am talking about is happening in depots to the rear and not on the front line. Oh and we arent in the Soviet Union but in German soil.

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Play HOI4 maybe instead?

No, I will continue to play WitE 2 and post about whatever flaws the game has. Thats how the game improves on what is lacking. Doesnt change the fact that this is the best Eastern Front simulator out there, nor does it affect how much I love this game.

I have put countless hours in this game and was on board during development doing all kinds of bug hunting, reporting and testing. A lot of the features that have carried over from the improved WitE 1 (like losses by phases, NM showing in unit counters) are in the game because I pushed for it.

I have no intention of quitting this game, nor do I intend to switch to another one any time soon

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

And even then the manpower pool wasnt empty until the end of the war. Loads of severly starved formations in 44-45 sounds about right to me.

Clearly shows that you have not been paying attention to the discussion at all. The issue isnt that there are depleted or understrength formations. The issue is that the Western Front sucks up all the replacements and nothing is left for the East. A distribution of manpower where 85% is going west and only 10% is going East is not historical at all.

Neither is it historical that every formation in the West is swimming in men and equipment while half of the Eastern Front cant even reach 55% TOE.

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

If, as you say, Germany receives 15k per week (60k per month), this is hardly a flawed historical simulation result.

Reread the posts and you will see what my issue is. The last example is that the entire East Armies are getting 4.6k men while two AA regiments in the west got 7k men. How exactly is that historical?

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Since there is a working work-around to the problem, that is historically accurate, I dont really see the problem here.

Fair enough, thats your right. And its my right to disagree with you. Just please pay attention to the discussion and make better arguments and not just: "go play HOI4 if you dont like it". Doesnt help your case.

[Nikel]

A list of german army divisions by theatre and month for reference.


https://www.axishistory.com/books/134-c ... rld-war-ii



Just counted maximum and minimum in the eastern front, excluding may 1945:

Feb 1943 195 represents a 69%.

Jul 1944 124 represents a 44%.


Could be interesting to have a source not by number of divisions, but by number of men.

[Metalist]

I saw this thread while reading xhoel's beautiful AAR* and I am curious about whether any changes were made on this replacement design in subsequent patches. Thanks!

*https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=376240

[jasonbroomer]

Yes, I believe it is. If manpower reserves drop below a certain level, bog standard units (eg not panzers etc) in TBs have their ToE reduced to 65% so that they don’t suck up available manpower

[Jeff_Ahl]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

What about making a slider where player can define in percentage how many men goes to a TB and to a map.

The result of this would be that Soviet players would set the slider for theater box reinforcements to 0% in 1941, at least for a while. This would mean that as of turn 3-4 or so, in the 1941 campaign, every on-map Soviet division would be a super strong 100% TOE unit, helping to bog down Germany more quickly.

Also, when around turn 10 or so Soviets start to get the 30somethin morale replacement divisions that replace the divisions destroyed in the turn 1 pockets, Soviet players would just set those units to 0% TOE, or whatever is the minimum, if it is lower than the current 50% minimum TOE.

So any change in this direction would really mostly be a Soviet buff in effect.

And Soviets don't need a buff.

There's just this one main exception of the late war scenario that xhoel is in.

And a way to prevent that is to have a much higher penalty if one do not fulfill the other theaters reinforcement needs. Which should be done any ways, much higher penalty.

Also prevent soviets the first few critical turns from making to big of a change with that slider in the eastern theater. They did not know IRL if the japs where about to go on the offensive towards them, but later on it became more and more obvious.

[Karri]

Germany sent many formations to the West to rest, refit and train for weeks and even months. "I dont like it", doesnt make the necessity to replicate this a flawed game design. The German logistical situation on the East Front was a nightmare. (Probably way worse than the game simulates). Re-equipping entire divisions on the frontline wasnt feasible at all, not matter how much a player wants it.

Game design is a keyword. I don't particularly like playing Quartermaster General, with my turns consisting of checking which units I need to ferry to different theater boxes, and which I need to rail back to the front, swap around, and so forth.