Minor Rivers & Streams

[Rake]

I'm wondering if there's a template (of sorts) for the layout of the minor rivers and streams bmp's.

I started working on adjusting their locations to fix the mismatch shown in the circled areas below:



I've identified, selected and moved these sections, but one or more are leaving fragments in-game from another section. So, I was wondering how you guys (the experts) align these pieces/parts to avoid the overlap.

From my other post, the two village hexes show a bit of the contrast and sharpening that I've done. A lot of the effect has been lost in jpeg compression and posting - it's sharper in game. This pic was strategically cropped as to not show the changes in jungle and forests; I need to do some work on the tree trunks in particular. (They'd work fine in a Russian birch forest )

[berto]

Some of the Minor River and Stream glitches you display are due to the elevation differences. It is an incredibly difficult puzzle to solve getting the microadjustments all done quite right.

BTW, what would that scenario be, and which hexes?

[Rake]

Thanks Berto!
It's the map from the Tutorials. Believe me, I do understand how difficult these are to place - I've modded these files in JTCS and in the similar Panzer Campaign games... one pixel off and I've got a mess.

Here's my 1st picture with Hex Coordinates added - this is with Elevation Delta set to 1:



Here is basically the same area at Elevation Delta 3:



I don't see much difference depending upon the elevation delta and I see it all over the map, not just these hexes. It's not a huge deal, but as I mentioned, I was just playing around with moving them and wondered what the experts use to align them correctly.

[berto]

Thanks. I was wondering about the effect of the Elevation Delta. Seems to make little or no difference in this regard.

[berto]

BTW, and perhaps it was a mistake: The original 3D map graphics were sharper, brighter, with more saturated colors. The step was taken to dull and desaturate and blur in order to

• Demote the map graphics, promote the unit graphics, so that the units would be the eye-catching stars of the show. (Kind of like background blur in portrait photography.)
• To adhere better to the earlier CS Middle East standard, where the 3D map graphics were also dulled, desaturated, and blurred.

Everybody sees things differently, everybody has his likes and dislikes.

[Rake]

BTW, and perhaps it was a mistake: The original 3D map graphics were sharper, brighter, with more saturated colors. The step was taken to dull and desaturate and blur in order to

• Demote the map graphics, promote the unit graphics, so that the units would be the eye-catching stars of the show. (Kind of like background blur in portrait photography.)
• To adhere better to the earlier CS Middle East standard, where the 3D map graphics were also dulled, desaturated, and blurred.

Everybody sees things differently, everybody has his likes and dislikes.

Understood... and, I don't think it was a mistake by any means. It was a design decision, and, evidently, well thought out. That's why we have mods

[Rake]

I'm getting over the worst case of the flu that I've had in nearly 50 years (oddly enough, I contracted that case in Navy boot camp several days after getting a flu shot). Anyhow, I've had too much time to think about this...

I didn't recall seeing this issue in Middle East, probably because much of that takes place in the desert and there aren't many streams or minor rivers that I remembered. So, I popped open Syrian Revenge and checked it for minor rivers/streams. There are a few places that don't match up perfectly (one or two pixels off), but I had to look really close to even notice this.

Here is a screen cap from CSME (Texture Labels will make more sense below):



My next effort was to copy the MinorRiver0d.bmp from CSME into my mod for CSVN. That shows the same mismatches that are evident with the river and stream textures from my OP *screen cap is from the same area of tutorial map):



So, there was one other thing to try... I opened the MinorRiver0d.bmp file from CSVN, selected the textures and re-colored them RED. I then overlayed that layer onto the same file from CSME and dropped the transparency to 50%:



This is a screen cap that I made to show Grid Lines that I created to outline the "boxes" that the textures must reside within so as not to spill over into another texture once inside the game.

As you can see, the textures generally line up fairly well. The textures that don't match up well in-game in CSVN are Textures B-4 (this one could move straight-up about 11 pixels without spilling out), C-3 & C-8. Texture C-1 is off slightly, but I haven't noticed it in-game.

So, since these textures appear to match up well in CSME, something else must have changed in CSVN. That would be beyond my capability to adjust. Truthfully, I like the way the CSME file looks in VN. I might have to recolor the streambanks a little, but I think it's less obtrusive and (to me) fits the scale of the map better. JMHO, YMMV

[Jason Petho]

That's fantastic detective work! Thank you!

Those style of streams look pretty good in there

[Rake]

Those style of streams look pretty good in there

I thought so too! Now, I'm trying to edit the ones that don't match so that they line up correctly.

This is slow, painful work... down at the individual pixel level

[Jason Petho]

I'd say I am envious, but I would be wholly lying.

Haha!

[berto]

A problem with redoing the Minor Rivers and Streams in that pencil thin fashion is they will not merge well with the Minor River Joins and Stream Joins to the in-hex (not hexside) Rivers, Canals, etc. Unless your aim is to redo everything water (etc.) related.

You should know that the waterways are now done substantially differently from how JTCS did them, and how WDS now does them. It's really a whole new graphics subsystem.

[Rake]

[/quote]

A problem with redoing the Minor Rivers and Streams in that pencil thin fashion is they will not merge well with the Minor River Joins and Stream Joins to the in-hex (not hexside) Rivers, Canals, etc. Unless your aim is to redo everything water (etc.) related.

Yes, Berto, you're correct... I was looking at this earlier this morning. I don't think the tie-ins will be too much of a problem. Once I have some more time, I'll have to start playing around with the rivers to see if it's possible to make them appear lower than the surrounding terrain.

You should know that the waterways are now done substantially differently from how JTCS did them, and how WDS now does them. It's really a whole new graphics subsystem.

Tell me more

I'd say I am envious, but I would be wholly lying.

All you had to say was the part before the comma... I know the last part's true

[berto]

Because of the new generalized waterway system -- at the heart of which is entirely new code, not just new data files, layouts, etc. -- as of yet we don't have riverbank effects, and the waterways don't sit quite well in a natural setting. With riverbank effects, the waterway intersections would be all messed up. Unless we add more overlays, more code, ...

JT's legacy graphics engine is one huge puzzle. Very difficult to get the pieces to fit together just right, if that is even possible. I might devote weeks and months to fixing and if necessary revamping the whole thing, but I don't have that time. So much else to do.

So many biomes and regions, so many different game settings. A gazillion files (not to mention the several gazillion unit graphic files), such a heavy burden to maintain. Except at the margins, for the foreseeable future, we are pretty much stuck with it. We groan under the weight of it all. <sigh>

[Rake]

Because of the new generalized waterway system -- at the heart of which is entirely new code, not just new data files, layouts, etc. -- as of yet we don't have riverbank effects, and the waterways don't sit quite well in a natural setting. With riverbank effects, the waterway intersections would be all messed up. Unless we add more overlays, more code, ...

JT's legacy graphics engine is one huge puzzle. Very difficult to get the pieces to fit together just right, if that is even possible. I might devote weeks and months to fixing and if necessary revamping the whole thing, but I don't have that time. So much else to do.

Thanks for the reply, Berto. I went back to work on Wednesday - just couldn't do another day in the house.

Coding??? The longest program I've ever written was a surveying routine for an HP-10C hand-held calculator back in the eighties. I'm glad there are those like you to do it; I'm just not one of them.

I do enjoy putzing around in Photoshop. I'm wont to open the graphics in most of the games I own just to look at how they fit. With CS and PzC being my favorites, I've spent most of that time in these graphics.

The legacy graphics are/were indeed a puzzle. Just when I think I have them figured out, I'll try something new, and wind up with background color blotches all over the map. Fitting them together? That's what this thread is mostly about; it's pixel by pixel level work and still not possible to match up 100% across all of the textures.

So many biomes and regions, so many different game settings. A gazillion files (not to mention the several gazillion unit graphic files), such a heavy burden to maintain. Except at the margins, for the foreseeable future, we are pretty much stuck with it. We groan under the weight of it all. <sigh>

I'm not one that needs different graphics for different areas of the world. I grew up with AH (Tactics II & Midway were my first wargames). Playing hex-based games, all I need from a map is a quick way to tell whether the next hex is Forest or Jungle. I am personally quite happy with the graphics in JTCS EF, WF and RS. But, I understand that those that started with games on computers likely tend to expect more from their graphics (and I do like it when my linear terrain features line up. )

All the biomes/regions are the killer to modding ME and VN. Just trying to figure out which set is being used by a scenario is a pain (I presume this can be found in the scn file, I just haven't looked there yet). As I have time, I'll keep playing around to see what works. I still have to find time to actually play the game.

[berto]

I grew up with AH (Tactics II & Midway were my first wargames).

More or less, me too. My very first war game was AH Gettysburg from around that same time.

I still have to find time to actually play the game.

The story of my life.