Turn 1 German Air Losses - 1.50 Beta

[hossjww30]

Ran the preplanned air bombing another user provided in 1.50 on turn 1. 452 plane losses before any ground support which is way higher than historical. This was fixed in a previous patch and now it's back. I'm so tired of this bullshit. This game is still not accurate over a year after its release. Do you guys do any play testing at all?

[Veterin]

T1 axis air is less effective in 0.50 however Axis gun losses are also lower. On balance the change probably favours Axis in my opinion.

[56ajax]

Ran the preplanned air bombing another user provided in 1.50 on turn 1. 452 plane losses before any ground support which is way higher than historical. This was fixed in a previous patch and now it's back. I'm so tired of this bullshit. This game is still not accurate over a year after its release. Do you guys do any play testing at all?

Um, can i just say that this game has not been developed by Microsoft/Apple with 10,000s of resources but by a small software house with limited resources. Did they do any play testing? Most likely as the out of the box ADs produced losses of 249/3678. The Soviet lossess are spot on but the Axis seem a tad high from memory.

I ran my own ADs (from 6 months ago) which used to produce losses of 120/4600 approx. Now they produce 328!!!!!/3569. Of those 328 losses 238 were combat!!!! Gadzooks. Obviously if there has been changes to air OOB and unit airfield locations this will impact the results.

Back to the drawing board.

[FortTell]

Maybe the increased losses are from the changes to the interception logic in .50? It was said in the changelog that it is now easier to intercept ground attack missions.

[AlbertN]

From my perspective T1 should not have Soviet reactions at all.
Soviet Airforce should not be set on 'ground support' either - but there should not be interceptions at all as tradeoff for the surprise attack.

[Joel Billings]

I won't know this for sure, but my guess about the change in T1 Axis losses may have to do with the changes to the stage base code. There are a few things that have been brought up in the tech support forum that have gone to Pavel to look at re bad stage base selection. Most of these are new with the last set of changes, which improved some things but could have had unintended side effects. Until those are looked at, analyzed and addressed, I can't say for sure if that's the cause. Some have complained that the number of a/c destroyed on the ground is too high, and that goes back many versions. It is valid to point out that there are many moving pieces, including sometimes data changes, so it's hard to get it "right", even if we could all agree on what that is (which I'm not convinced we could do). Yes, there was some testing done, but we have few testers actively playing the latest version that comes out, and fewer willing to just replay specific situations to see how they come out. Plus, we have many different campaigns, so turn 1 of C41 is just one of many items we try to look at (although it clearly is the most visible to all, it is also in some ways the most unusual due to the special rules). The public beta is just that, something we release in order to get more widespread testing and feedback. So we welcome specific feedback from people playing the game. I applaud people willing to use public betas in their existing games, as well as those that start over and run new games, as that's how we find things to improve.

As for turn 1 C41, has anyone ever produced a comprehensive, credible list of aircraft destroyed in the first week of the war for both sides, including how many a/c were destroyed on the ground (by bombing and/or by overrunning airfields)? Would be really interested in seeing that totals and the source.

[Commanderski]

As for turn 1 C41, has anyone ever produced a comprehensive, credible list of aircraft destroyed in the first week of the war for both sides, including how many a/c were destroyed on the ground (by bombing and/or by overrunning airfields)? Would be really interested in seeing that totals and the source.

I just ran the opening of the C41 with 2.50 beta 5 times and making no adjustments to the air directives. The Day 1 losses ranged from 278 to 286 with the total losses ranging from 304 to 320. To get 452 losses the player must have made some adjustments prior to executing the air phase.

On page 119 of "Barbarossa: The Air Battle July-December 1941by Christer Bergstrom" there is a table of German losses by week along with the aircraft types. The first week (22 June - 30 June '41) total is 289, so I think the game is as close to historically correct as we can get at the moment.

I'll have to look around for the initial Soviet losses but I think it might be kind of hard to find out how many Soviet planes were lost by overrunning.

[Veterin]

I won't know this for sure, but my guess about the change in T1 Axis losses may have to do with the changes to the stage base code. There are a few things that have been brought up in the tech support forum that have gone to Pavel to look at re bad stage base selection. Most of these are new with the last set of changes, which improved some things but could have had unintended side effects. Until those are looked at, analyzed and addressed, I can't say for sure if that's the cause. Some have complained that the number of a/c destroyed on the ground is too high, and that goes back many versions. It is valid to point out that there are many moving pieces, including sometimes data changes, so it's hard to get it "right", even if we could all agree on what that is (which I'm not convinced we could do). Yes, there was some testing done, but we have few testers actively playing the latest version that comes out, and fewer willing to just replay specific situations to see how they come out. Plus, we have many different campaigns, so turn 1 of C41 is just one of many items we try to look at (although it clearly is the most visible to all, it is also in some ways the most unusual due to the special rules). The public beta is just that, something we release in order to get more widespread testing and feedback. So we welcome specific feedback from people playing the game. I applaud people willing to use public betas in their existing games, as well as those that start over and run new games, as that's how we find things to improve.

As for turn 1 C41, has anyone ever produced a comprehensive, credible list of aircraft destroyed in the first week of the war for both sides, including how many a/c were destroyed on the ground (by bombing and/or by overrunning airfields)? Would be really interested in seeing that totals and the source.

I believe it’s auto interception related. Soviets went from
Very few air intercepts on T1 bombing to some. Increased A2A combat through axis air phase as well as disruption of axis bombers (leading to more soviet fighters surviving for more A2A).

[DarkHorse2]

As for turn 1 C41, has anyone ever produced a comprehensive, credible list of aircraft destroyed in the first week of the war for both sides, including how many a/c were destroyed on the ground (by bombing and/or by overrunning airfields)? Would be really interested in seeing that totals and the source.

https://ww2clash.com/losses
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AA ... ffe-3.html

By the end of June some 330 German aircraft had been lost, against a total of 4,614 Soviet aircraft reported destroyed, 1,438 in the air and 3,176 the ground.

Germany and the Second World War, Volume IV/II, The Attack on the Soviet Union, Research Institute for Military History(Potsdam, Germany), pg 764

Total Luftwaffe losses amounted to 78 on 22 June; 24 Bf 109s, seven Bf 110s, 11 He 111s, two Ju 87s, one Do 17 and 10 miscellaneous types. The Romanian Air Force lost four Blenheims, two PZL P-37 fighters, two Savoia-Marchetti SM.79, one Potez 633, one IAR 37 and one IAR 39. Losses amounted to 90 other Axis aircraft. Soviet statistics contained considerable exaggeration, claiming "more than 200 enemy aircraft" destroyed on the first day. However, the sheer scale of Operation Barbarossa meant that the Luftwaffe lost in the order of as many planes on one day as on its worst day during the Battle of Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_wa ... Barbarossa

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The following is one example after running the current canned missions, but slightly tweaked adding in fuel tanks and adjusting bomb loads. (I have not completed the turn, overrun any airbases or yet conducted ground support missions)
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WiTE2_T1_AirMissionLosses_2.JPG (126.46 KiB) Viewed 1632 times

However, what is more troubling than these losses is the continued nerfing of German Transport aircraft stats. I have, historically, provided numerous references of how the JU 52 data is flawed and insufficient to allow their meaningful use in the subsequent air resupply operations conducted.

Finally, in the Junkers Ju 52, the Luftwaffe possessed a rugged workhorse, fully capable of transporting 1.800 kg (4,000 lbs.) of cargo, or 18 fully-equipped soldiers or ten 200-liter fuel drums to a distance up to 1,000km (620 miles) one way !.

Transport aircraft allowed the concentration of force quickly or provided urgently needed provisions when supply by land was unsatisfactory. They also offered courier services transporting documents and commanders where needed.

Around 10% of the Luftwaffe aircraft were transport aircraft.

https://ww2clash.com/state-luftwaffe.php

In WiTE2, even after changing JU 52 loads to include auxiliary fuel tanks, JU 52 radius(miles) is constrained to 280. At the least, it should be extended to 310 miles. However, the fact is that air transport aircraft did not conduct routine air transport missions as if it had conducted a bombing run - by limiting the range of operation to some fraction of their radius.

On the contrary, they were allowed to conduct routine air transport at ranges nearly double than that allowed by WiTE2.

As we are all mostly aware, WiTE2 is really all about logistics. The end result is that the WiTE2 Luftwaffe is severely curtained when it later comes to supplying forward airbases and key units during the critical stages of the rapid Barbarossa offensive - or conduct meaningful resupply of isolated German positions during the Soviet winter offensives. (i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket)

Even with a 2000kg load, the (older model) JU 52/3M had at minimum a cruising speed of 135km/hr and flight time of up to 8 hrs. That would be a (8hrs x 135km/hr x 0.62mile/km) flight distance of 669 miles.

More detailed discussion of JU52 payload/ranges can be found here:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 9&t=182771

[AlbertN]

I've pointed out earlier on and posted plenty of screenshots of how the OPs losses are tragic, with a 5-10% loss ratio for Ju52 by purely flying in fair weather over friendly hexes.
Not to talk what happens when they're flying throug snow or over enemy controlled hexes with units (albeit barely with flak) or if intercepted by enemy fighters with lousy / extremely ineffectual own escorts by what I saw.
It seems to me that the air combat in air transport missions is a totally different beast than say, GS type of air combat, etc.

And from my perspective in T1 Soviets should not fly. Not in Axis turn, nor in their own turn. They're surprised and disorganized pretty much.
That cuts down both the 'losses' of bombers flying on German formations right off the bat but also the Germans / Axis can plan their own airfield bombing without having to play interception-lottery.

[Joel Billings]

One of the links above, listed 16 Soviet a/c lost in the air in the first day vs FKIV (FK IV is on the "quiet" Romanian front). It lists 210 Soviet a/c lost in the air by noon of the 2nd day in the Western District (don't know what that means), but clearly some Soviet a/c were being lost in the air. I think given the increased detections, players would be advised to back off on some of the more aggressive missions to bomb airfields deep without good escorts. That's where a lot of the German losses in the ground attack missions are coming from. With the combination of destroyed by aerial bombing and those damaged by bombing and then overrun by land units, you can get the historical on the ground losses on turn 1 without needing to take the losses in the longer range bombing. The ground support battles will go overwhelmingly for the Germans against the Soviet a/c that survive and come up in ground support. Not having the Soviets fly (or intercept) at all on the first week is not right. Probably some additional restrictions on day 1 intercepts would be reasonable (not sure if we have any, or if we just have the flak reduction), but I don't think it's a major item.

As for the Ju52 issues, I leave that to Dennis as our aircraft expert. We've got on our task list to allow transports flying transport missions to non-isolated/beachhead supply locations to fly 40-45% of total range instead of 33%, but we haven't gotten aroudn to making that change.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

One of the links above, listed 16 Soviet a/c lost in the air in the first day vs FKIV (FK IV is on the "quiet" Romanian front). It lists 210 Soviet a/c lost in the air by noon of the 2nd day in the Western District (don't know what that means), but clearly some Soviet a/c were being lost in the air. I think given the increased detections, players would be advised to back off on some of the more aggressive missions to bomb airfields deep without good escorts. That's where a lot of the German losses in the ground attack missions are coming from. With the combination of destroyed by aerial bombing and those damaged by bombing and then overrun by land units, you can get the historical on the ground losses on turn 1 without needing to take the losses in the longer range bombing. The ground support battles will go overwhelmingly for the Germans against the Soviet a/c that survive and come up in ground support. Not having the Soviets fly (or intercept) at all on the first week is not right. Probably some additional restrictions on day 1 intercepts would be reasonable (not sure if we have any, or if we just have the flak reduction), but I don't think it's a major item.

Anything beyond German fighter range is "very" risky for bombing by Germany on turn 1. Feels like when I first started playing WITE2 with all the interception by Soviets but I have seen it before and already have the counter measures. I personally have already figured out Turn 1 bombing with low losses and don't see an issue. I am sure others will figure it out soon enough and post a new updated first turn airfield bombing for Germany. Good luck out there.

[Rexzapper]

As for the Ju52 issues, I leave that to Dennis as our aircraft expert. We've got on our task list to allow transports flying transport missions to non-isolated/beachhead supply locations to fly 40-45% of total range instead of 33%, but we haven't gotten aroudn to making that change.

It would be nice if that change was implemented as soon as possible. Supply is paramount in this game... and from the German side it is clear that the Luftwaffe transport force is nowhere near up to the task. It is evident that the Ju-52 does not work efficiently, its range is much lower than the real one. It should not only have a range of 33% of its total range when operating over its own territory, that is limiting its operability a lot. Its usefulness is greatly reduced.

[56ajax]

When I examined the results from ADs I created nearly 12 months ago there was 1 Air Combat. Now when I run those ADs there are 21+ Air Combats. Perhaps too many especially those over the frontier in Axis territory. We are talking about Day 1 here.

[ShaggyHiK]

Let's start with the fact that in the game the losses of Soviet aviation in 1 day are 2 or 3 times greater than in 3 days in a real situation on June 22-25, 41.

If we take as a base the very fact of the huge game losses of the USSR on June 22. That the Germans are now in favorable gaming conditions.

[hossjww30]

My prior research indicated the Germans lost about 200 planes and the Soviets lost about 2000-2500 planes in say Turn 1. I'm not saying the game needs to produce identical results but losing 500 planes as Germany on Turn 1 (excluding ground support remember) is ridiculous. There needs to be a Turn 1 modification to Soviet fighters intercepting raids.

[Joel Billings]

The question I have is whether with an adjustment to the turn 1 starting ADs, the German losses would come down and we'd see fairly historical numbers for both sides losses. The turn 1 ADs were set up with the old model in mind, and based on some other posts I've seen, I think it can be improved upon by quite a bit. Clearly you don't want to fly your bombers unescorted, so the question is can ADs be better set up to avoid that situation and get historical results? Has anyone tried?

[hossjww30]

All I know is something definitely changed in 1.50 on Turn 1 German air losses. I would run the exact same pre-planned airfield raids another user provided so it's a nice indicator of air changes between versions. In prior versions I think I would get less than 100 losses (again, air phase only not counting ground support) mostly due to flak. Now with 1.50 almost all of the losses are due to air combat which I don't feel is accurate historically.

As another poster noted, the Soviet losses are also higher than historical but the Soviets can make up losses so much easier due to their production than the Germans, correct?

[hossjww30]

My point is a Turn 1 modifier is needed because the Soviets basically didn't even get off the ground I don't believe in the first few days.

[Joel Billings]

I just adjusted the starting ADs in C41 by removing any ADs with no escorts, reducing recon to 1 day only, and changing all the ADs to follow the path. The results I got from the air phase were 95 lost Axis a/c (89 German) and 2,227 lost Soviet a/c. That compares with 255 and 3558 with the stock air directives. Sounds like with these adjustments you'll get close/closer to historical results. As long as you only use ground support within range of your fighters, I'm betting you can continue getting a good ratio of kills during the ground phase and will be able to destroy some additional planes on the ground that will get overrun while damaged. Sure, we can probably reduce the ability of the Soviets to intercept on the first day of the air phase, but not sure if it's as far off as you're saying given these tweaks that can be made to the ADs.