Different flights engage defensive against missiles

[davedashftw]

This might be WAD, but I don't think it should be, as it completely ruins A2A tactics.

Multiple separate flights will ALL engage defensive at one single enemy missile that is in rough proximity to them.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Load up any mission including quick mission.
2. Ensure you have two separate flights.
3. Let the enemy shoot a missile at you.
4. Watch all your flights engage defensive.

Only the aircraft that is being locked-on should engage defensive. His wingman should be shooting to break lock of semi-active radar missiles, or at the very least not lose the initiative.

Other flights should definitely NOT be engaging defensive.

[thewood1]

I think this is actually more realistic than CMNAO used to be. Read any reports of SAM launches through Vietnam to Desert Storm and you'll see that SAM launch defensive tactics are for all close proximity aircraft to go to defensive maneuvering. Its why North Vietnam launched SA-2s blind. They knew it would disrupt ingresses. Iraqis did it in Desert Storm also. These incidents are fairly well documented in various Osprey Combat Aircraft, Osprey Air Campaign, and Osprey New Vanguard books.

[BDukes]

This might be WAD, but I don't think it should be, as it completely ruins A2A tactics.

Multiple separate flights will ALL engage defensive at one single enemy missile that is in rough proximity to them.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Load up any mission including quick mission.
2. Ensure you have two separate flights.
3. Let the enemy shoot a missile at you.
4. Watch all your flights engage defensive.

Only the aircraft that is being locked-on should engage defensive. His wingman should be shooting to break lock of semi-active radar missiles, or at the very least not lose the initiative.

Other flights should definitely NOT be engaging defensive.

Dave this really depends. How does a group of aircraft really know which one is being engaged? Time and space, sure but in the context of an emitting active seeker and a group of targets within the sensor arc, nope.

Are you seeing this globally, as in aircraft hundreds of miles part. If its under 20 or whatever its probably fine.

[davedashftw]

This might be WAD, but I don't think it should be, as it completely ruins A2A tactics.

Multiple separate flights will ALL engage defensive at one single enemy missile that is in rough proximity to them.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Load up any mission including quick mission.
2. Ensure you have two separate flights.
3. Let the enemy shoot a missile at you.
4. Watch all your flights engage defensive.

Only the aircraft that is being locked-on should engage defensive. His wingman should be shooting to break lock of semi-active radar missiles, or at the very least not lose the initiative.

Other flights should definitely NOT be engaging defensive.

Dave this really depends. How does a group of aircraft really know which one is being engaged? Time and space, sure but in the context of an emitting active seeker and a group of targets within the sensor arc, nope.

Are you seeing this globally, as in aircraft hundreds of miles part. If its under 20 or whatever its probably fine.

No, it doesn't depend.

Aircraft after a certain generation can tell which one has been locked on via the RWR. It's absolutely NOT a case of just being painted by the enemy sensor arc.

The only case multiple aircraft should be engaging defensive is when a passive seeker missile is launched.

[thewood1]

After what generation? Thats kind of vague.

[davedashftw]

After what generation? Thats kind of vague.

Let’s look at how radar actually works instead of what is modelled in CMO, which makes radar WAY too powerful.

The Mig-29 for example has quite a poor radar compared to other 4th Gen platforms, and really only has two BVR modes used in combat.

STT mode, which will cause the RWR of THE target like a F-16 to start squarking like mad. It’s very obvious to THAT target that it is the one that has been locked on.

Then there is TWS2 mode, which can only be used with the R-77, and only had the capability to attack TWO targets and is far less reliable than STT.

Yet in game, one Mig-29 will fire a SARH missile (which must be STT mode) and cause every friendly aircraft in 20nm to engage defensive, completely ruining their attack posture. I’m not sure but this behaviour seems to be introduced with the recent patch, since I didn’t notice it before.

As an aside, a real pilot can’t tell the difference between launch and lock-on from SARH missiles unless you physically can see the missile being launched. So it’s likely they’d engage defensive as soon as they’re locked, not wait until the last minute like they do in game (or turn and burn after the launch).

[thewood1]

20 nm is quite far. I've personally never seen that, but actually have never looked closely outside a couple specific events.

[thewood1]

Just ran a test of a Mig-29 firing an AA-10 at an F-15.I made a small line across of three F-15s so that the target F15 is flanked at 20nm on each side. All F-15s were on an ROE of hold fire. As soon as the target F15 saw the missile, it went defensive. Neither of the flanking F-15s went defensive. I started moving F-15s closer until around 2nm from the target F-15. At that point, the flanking F-15s went defensive. As soon as I moved them back out to 5nm, they went back to plotted course.

I did this playing in the editor and used M to move the flankers around. Not sure if this is proper reproduction or not, but going to play around with it.

Edit...looks like 7-8nm with the missile pointed in the general direction. Outside the frontal arc of the missile, no non-targeted F-15 went defensive. Probably needs a little more investigation, but it doesn't seem as bad as I thought.

[davedashftw]

I had an absurd situation (which is what prompted me to create this post) where I had multiple wings of F-18s around 20nm apart engage defensive against a couple of SARH missiles.

The missiles were clearly NOT going towards the wings at the back, yet they turned tail and ran anyway.

I will try and reproduce with screenshots and settings to make it easier.

[thewood1]

Don't bother with screen shots. The save is important.