Return Flight Path of A/C Group when Leader is Destroyed

[DWReese]

I don't want to report this as an error as of yet as I'd like to see if any of you have experienced something similar:

A group of 4 striking planes is heading for a target. The Flight Path that I have mapped out usually works great. The path is basically a 90 degree approach to the area, and then a 0 degree at 200 feet to the target. That way it avoids SAMs. I have tested this numerous times, and it works perfectly.

The observation: Sometimes, on a rare occasion, an AA ground unit gets off a great shot, and the lead unit of the 4-plane group gets destroyed. The actual attack works fine, but it seems that sometimes if the lead unit is destroyed the remaining units seem to abandon their path on their way home, which is really just supposed to be a reverse course path back to the base. Instead, the group heads back on a Direct Path (diagonal course) toward home. To make matters worse, the group climbs up to 36k feet, which goes right into the SAMs that I wanted them to avoid. They usually all get destroyed.

It seems that if the lead plane is destroyed, the group loses its mind.

This is hard to reproduce because if you try to SAVE a scenario, it has to be BEFORE the attack, and there is no guarantee that the LEAD PLANE is going to be destroyed when playing with the save. I tried saving a game before the plane is shot down, and then replaying it, but the lead plane rarely gets shot down, so I can't readily reproduce it. Hence, that's why I am bringing it up here.

I've only seen this with a 4-plane group, but it may occur in other configurations.

Has anyone else observed this? If so, it might help to sort it out.

[KnightHawk75]

I have not observed it just yet in wild but....

If you need help destroying the lead at any given point in time

ScenEdit_KillUnit( {guid='guidofleadunitHere'} );
or
ScenEdit_KillUnit( { side='SideA', unitname='leadunitname'} );

Into the console or in an event set for specific time. (ctrl-c while having the unit selected will get you the guid)
If you don't know who the lead is..

Code: Select all

local g = ScenEdit_GetUnit({guid='THEGRO-UPSGUIDHERE'});  --(ctrl-c on the group when in group view)
print('got the group leader they have the guid ' .. tostring(g.group.lead));
ScenEdit_KillUnit({guid=g.group.lead}); --kill the leader now
print('group leader has been killed.');

[DWReese]

I just ran the attack again, and it happened again, so I do know that it is real. It was similar circumstances to the first.

Lua coding, however, is way above my skill set, so I'm not going to be able to do that.

But, I don't want to give up. I was thinking of trying to simply delete the unit before the attack, and see if i can reproduce it again. Otherwise, this requires a bunch of saves in hopes of it happening again so that I have something to show.

[thewood1]

Can't you run it in editor and just delete the lead plan?

edit...Go to unit view, select lead, detach from group. Then you can delete or not.

[DWReese]

yes, that's what I just said in the message before yours. I'll try deleting the lead unit manually and see what happens. I don't know if it is related specifically to a weapon, or a specific type of plane, or what. I just know that it has happened a couple of times now, and I was hoping that others might see this and be able to add some more detail to it.

[Tcao]

Or, how about this, set up an experiencement as: Increase group space. go to editor, add a SAM with high kill probability, edit defending SAM's ammunition, give SAM sites only two Missiles. Ensure the WRA is 2 missiles on one plane.

I think I experienced the similar situation before but didn't bother to report that.

[thewood1]

You have to be careful using delete. Thats why I was specific in use detach. Hitting delete kills the group altogether and makes individual units. Detach will remove the lead from the group and I'm pretty sure that will work the same as deleting it. Or, after detach, delete it.

[DWReese]

But, if the hypothesis is that when the group loses its leader, then they no longer follow pre-arranged flight paths of the group, wouldn't detaching and deleting the leader by way of detachment defeat the purpose of seeing how a group responds when the leader is no longer present? It would seem so. On order to have a valid test, it would seem that it needs to happen naturally.

I'll see what I can do.

Thanks for the help.

[DWReese]

Wrong way.zip

(103.03 KiB) Downloaded 20 times

This is the best that I can do for the moment: Grupo 5 #2 (not the lead) is the lone surviving member of a 4-plane group that attacked HMS Fearless. As you can see from the Flight Path, the group should have finished its attack, and turned back south, heading for Waypoint #8 at 200 feet, before turning west and heading for home. Instead, the plane (there may have been others, I forgotten) headed due west, ignoring the Flight Path. There are two enemy ships FF#5 and DDG#4 which have SAMs. and that presents a problem for the air strike group.

I can see no reason as to why it would turn west and fly through the SAM zone at 36k feet and not follow the originally designed Flight Path. Every other group has done just that. The working theory, at this point, is that the loss of the leader caused this. Perhaps, it's the combined loss of all of the members of the group other than this plane.

At least you can see what I am talking about.

IMG_0249.jpg (181.69 KiB) Viewed 1358 times

[KnightHawk75]

Putting in my stack of stuff to look at.

[DWReese]

BTW, it's not a low fuel thing. The base is only 3-400 miles away, and the path would have taken the undamaged plane through a taker/refueling zone.

[michaelm75au]

Without looking at it, if the plane has RTB'ed it would no longer be following the flight plan as theoretically no longer actively engaged in the attack.
Most RTBs I see tend to revert to basically direct courses to their base.

[DWReese]

Michael,

Thanks for chiming in.

It's not RTB. It still shows as being on a PLOTTED COURSE.

It's not heading to the tanker. At 36k feet, it can travel 1250 miles, and it is only about 250 miles away from the base at the time that the picture was taken.

As I said, this attack works perfectly almost every time. But, something happened this time. (It has happened before, as well.) That's what I am trying to figure out.

[DWReese]

Okay I did it. I was able to reproduce it, but it takes some effort, so you will have to follow the comments precisely.

I have 4 planes ready to approach the British ship on a bombing run.

The plane at the beginning of the group is listed as the LEAD. My theory was that if you eliminate the LEAD, that things can go haywire. So, I highlighted and deleted the LEAD unit. That left three planes left. With the original LEAD unit gone, the game simply designates a new LEAD unit. So, the first part of my theory is wrong.

That left three planes. The next two approached and dropped bombs and began making the turn to the right (as was designed). One plane was shot down. That left the new LEAD (that had already dropped its bomb and Grupo 5 #6 which had not dropped its bomb.

Okay, here's the tricky part. Grupo 5 #6 is about to drop its bomb. If I let it drop its bomb and fly over and beyond the target before I delete the LEAD, then it will turn to the right and head south, just like I wanted him to do. With the lead deleted, he will become the new LEAD and because he is already on that path to head south, everything works fine.

But, if I delete the LEAD BEFORE Grupo 5 #6 flies over the target (thus making him the sole plane remaining and the new LEAD, things are different. With no other planes in the group, and Grupo 5 #6 now the new LEAD, and having cleared the target, Grupo 5 #6 simply turns west and heads home, and abandons the Flight Plan.

So, this seems to only occur when there is only one plane left out of the group, and that plane hasn't completed its pass (reached) the TARGET as of yet. When he reached the target, he will turn and fly directly home.

This is a very tricky sequence, and you will need to be watching closely in 1:1 time to get it. Even stll, the timing of the deletion of the LEAD unit is critical.

This is an example of it working as expected. The LEAD plane has not been deleted, and Grupo 5 #6 has flown beyond the TARGET.

IMG_0251.jpg (108.43 KiB) Viewed 1232 times

This is an example of the LEAD plane being destroyed BEFORE Grupo 5 #6 reached the target. Now that he is the only plane left he is the new LEAD plane. As you can see, he is making a turn to the left (his base is due west) and he is going to abandon the Flight Path.

This is the attack BEFORE Grupo 4 #6 has passed the TARGET.

12. Cry Havoc Bluff Cove (Maybe).zip

(97.1 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

Finally, this is the scenario before the battle. Remember, you will have to manually delete these units to make things work.

LEAD.zip

(96.45 KiB) Downloaded 20 times

[DWReese]

So, this seems to only occur when there is only one plane left out of the group, and that plane hasn't completed its pass (reached) the TARGET as of yet. When he reached the target, he will turn and fly directly home.

This is still occurring in 1307.3

[michaelm75au]

I am still looking at this.

[cmanouser1]

Could be similar to the bug I filed here, a save is included too: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=392655
I don't reach the same conclusions as you though, (happens with more than 1 unit left etc)

[DWReese]

This problem still exists in 1307.4

[Dimitris]

Is this still an issue in the current build? (B1307.12)

[DWReese]

Is this still an issue in the current build? (B1307.12)

This issue has only been tested about a dozen times by me, and it appears to be FIXED. Additional testing will be conducted.

EDIT: SEE SUBSEQUENT MESSAGE. It is still broken.