Some remarks on historical accuracy

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RudiDutschke
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:06 pm

Some remarks on historical accuracy

Post by RudiDutschke »

Hello guys,

it is my endeavor to reenact "Unternehmen Barbarossa" meticulously using old maps, microfilms, etc. This works very well, except for some remarks. WitE2 is my absolute favorite game which is why I would call this "complaining on a high comfort level". After more than 1.5 years of intensive playing, I would also like to contribute something to the discussion. Please forgive my English, I am Austrian.

1) There are too few roads on the map. If you look at the original maps, unfortunately very many are missing.

2) the "Battle of Smolensk" is hard to beat because there are no roads from Nevel to Demidov etc., in general almost all cauldron battles work well, just this one not so.

On this screenshot you see both points on one picture. Its a part of an map of 8. July 1941. You see plenty of streets running around in the area of Vitebsk.
Screenshot 2023-02-11 214652.gif
Screenshot 2023-02-11 214652.gif (1.03 MiB) Viewed 451 times
3) The 17th army advances much too slowly, the real troop movements were much faster. Also: In reality, the line Lviv - Tarnopol - Proskurov - Vinnica did not run "straight" from left to right, but runs clearly to the eastwards and to the south.

4) Riga cannot be taken with the 217th ID or 69th ID in the first turn and sometimes not even in the second, in general the advance of these two divisions, also with regard to Estonia was much faster than in the game.

5) In July and August the Russian forces in the Pripyat Marshes area are much too weak, one always reads about how strong the forces in the Korosten area were, for this also the 6th Army was given much more forces in reality, than necessary in the game.

6) As often as I play, I think the computer has never cleared out his forces in Odessa in 1941, whether I'm standing there with 10 or 12 Romanian divisions. Maybe he did some time ago in the beginning (earlier patchtes), dont know for sure. An attack for conquest is impossible anyway.

One question: is there a possibility, that the AI moves just like they did in real history? I have the feeling, its moving every time different?

Another questions would be: Why is there no scenario from spring 1942 to Open End? I don't mean from "Unternehmen Blau" on, but directly after the end of the Russian winter offensive 41/42? Has anyone written this scenario? Or maybe there are historically correct savefiles for it?

I look forward to a discussion and hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes. (Can you say that in english?) Maybe in those points balancing is more important that historical accuracy, I dont know, if it is like that, tell me!

All love,
R.D.
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Wiedrock
Posts: 1703
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:44 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Some remarks on historical accuracy

Post by Wiedrock »

RudiDutschke wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:59 pm I am Austrian
Where the Kangaroos are from?


1) there are at least "poor roads" everywhere
2) there is a dotted road leading from Nevel to Demidov through Usvyat and Velizh. Demidov actually has every road in your map in game has a dotted road.
3)
RudiDutschke wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:59 pm Also: In reality, the line Lviv - Tarnopol - Proskurov - Vinnica did not run "straight" from left to right, but runs clearly to the eastwards and to the south.
Green = real map, purple/pink = ingame red = 3xfine, 1x tiny bit off
lvov-winniza.png
lvov-winniza.png (540.67 KiB) Viewed 427 times
Note that they decided to go with a more appropriate map concerning the distances RL <-> Map. That's why it seems like the whole right side of the map is "pulled up" which is due to the globe being not flat.
Map
RudiDutschke wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:59 pm One question: is there a possibility, that the AI moves just like they did in real history? I have the feeling, its moving every time different?
I wouldn't concider a AI doing 100% the same every time an AI. I guess it's and AI and therefore is doing things differently. Same as the weather, where they chose to not go with the RL-weather and created some weather system instead.


I've added 2 pictures which may interest you (if you not already got the Panzerstraßenplan). Note that I've not finished/doubleckecked the project.
This shows the planned routes for Panzergruppe 1. The additional 4 routes (of which 2 were named "Reserve" were just written in text which I tried to project on the map.
Attachments
karte.jpg
karte.jpg (1.33 MiB) Viewed 427 times
NARA: T314 - R1138 - 000657 &quot;XXXXVIII  0661&quot; and following
NARA: T314 - R1138 - 000657 "XXXXVIII 0661" and following
Panzerstrassen.jpg (3.05 MiB) Viewed 427 times
Nikel
Posts: 2228
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Some remarks on historical accuracy

Post by Nikel »

RudiDutschke wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:59 pm 6) As often as I play, I think the computer has never cleared out his forces in Odessa in 1941, whether I'm standing there with 10 or 12 Romanian divisions. Maybe he did some time ago in the beginning (earlier patchtes), dont know for sure. An attack for conquest is impossible anyway.
Just in case you missed these threads, a number of solutions were given.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=385972

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5#p4830345


In fact historically Odessa was evacuated, not taken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Odessa_(1941)


On the other hand, some heavy siege artillery is missing

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0#p4861260
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