Level bomber bombs

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 5:08 pm

Hi !

At Romania I seen at Level Bombers 3 sections: 2 medium bombers, 4 medium bombers and 6 medium bombers. O.K. But searching the characteristics there is 120 kg and 250 kg bombs. What about 50 kk, 100 kg, and 225 kg bombs carried commonly by romanian level bombers in WWII. Today I read old materials about romanian bombardements with 50 and 100 kg bombs on Odessa city.
Thank you.

Leo.

ZinZan · Post by **ZinZan** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 6:11 pm

I believe these are meant to be generic level bombers, not specific to any air force.

IIRC this is for 2 reasons
1) freeing up some space in the OOB's
2) Justification on grounds that this sort of force was not controlled at Battalion/Division level, more at Army/Army Group level.

After all the effect of carpet bombing are pretty generic anyway

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 6:58 pm

Originally posted by ZinZan:
I believe these are meant to be generic level bombers, not specific to any air force.

IIRC this is for 2 reasons
1) freeing up some space in the OOB's
2) Justification on grounds that this sort of force was not controlled at Battalion/Division level, more at Army/Army Group level.

After all the effect of carpet bombing are pretty generic anyway

I don't think that a 50 kg bomb could match a 250 one !

Leo.

sven · Post by **sven** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 7:04 pm

Originally posted by Gavris Narcis:

I don't think that a 50 kg bomb could match a 250 one !

Leo.

Gavris a 50kg bomb does not match a 250kg bomb. This difference in power is handled by having the different categories of level bombers.

sven

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:08 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sven:
[QB]

Gavris a 50kg bomb does not match a 250kg bomb. This difference in power is handled by having the different categories of level bombers.

Sven, I ask this because I want to know in which category enters some bombers who carried only 50 kg bombs in WWII. For example the romanians have Potez (very commonly and active in war) bombers who carries only 10, 50 or 100 kg bombs (75% of times- 50 kg bombs), the maximum loading of bombs =330-400 kg. In which category to introduce them ? I think it's an example of Light bombers, but in Romania section isn't mentioned (only medium bombers). Or tell me what idea is at the base of the Level Bombers concept.
Thank you.

Leo.

sven · Post by **sven** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:25 pm

Originally posted by Gavris Narcis:

Originally posted by sven:
[QB]

Gavris a 50kg bomb does not match a 250kg bomb. This difference in power is handled by having the different categories of level bombers.

Sven, I ask this because I want to know in which category enters some bombers who carried only 50 kg bombs in WWII. For example the romanians have Potez (very commonly and active in war) bombers who carries only 10, 50 or 100 kg bombs (75% of times- 50 kg bombs), the maximum loading of bombs =330-400 kg. In which category to introduce them ? I think it's an example of Light bombers, but in Romania section isn't mentioned (only medium bombers). Or tell me what idea is at the base of the Level Bombers concept.
Thank you.

Leo.

Gavris you seem to have all the answers so why are you asking questions? I have yet to you cite a source for you ruminations. Could you please do as such?

Sven

achappelle · Post by **achappelle** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:32 pm

Gavris,
You seem to have alot of your own information, why not just modify the OOB for the Romanian forces. I'm pretty sure there is a slot available for the light bombers you want. The tools are there for you to use.

SAMWolf · Post by **SAMWolf** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:32 pm

Originally posted by Gavris Narcis:
Hi !

At Romania I seen at Level Bombers 3 sections: 2 medium bombers, 4 medium bombers and 6 medium bombers. O.K. But searching the characteristics there is 120 kg and 250 kg bombs. What about 50 kk, 100 kg, and 225 kg bombs carried commonly by romanian level bombers in WWII. Today I read old materials about romanian bombardements with 50 and 100 kg bombs on Odessa city.
Thank you.

Leo.

Here's a place to start:

Romanian Aircraft of WW II

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:20 pm

Gavris, Level bombers are just that...a flight of bombers flying at high altitude, whose mission is to bomb a certain piece of geography. They are a representation of the massed bomber squadrons, and carry 'generic' heavy loads to simulate the intense carpet-bombing prevalent in WWII. They are the same units for ALL nations in the game....US, German, Brit, Soviet, and, yes, even Rumanian. They don't represent individual planes....there is no choice on type of plane, type of bomb load, or how many. They are abstract....if you want specific planes with specific loads, you have a couple of choices:

1) Make your own with the editor. Then you can assign whatever bomb load you feel is correct.

2) Give us some factual data, including links to websites and book names (and authors) so we can try to put them in.

3) Accept the bombers as they are, and enjoy the game.

It is, of course, your choice what you decide to do.

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:45 am

3) Accept the bombers as they are, and enjoy the game.

Another suggestion is to take advantage of abstraction.
Since Romanian bombers carried lighter loads than the "average" bomber represented in the game, just force the Romanian player to use only the "2 Med bomber" option.
This would accurately simulate both the presence of such support, and the fact that due to light bombloads, in game terms that support however many "IRL" is "equal" to 2 bombers.

tcooper · Post by **tcooper** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:32 am

Originally posted by Flashfyre:
They are a representation of the massed bomber squadrons, and carry 'generic' heavy loads to simulate the intense carpet-bombing prevalent in WWII. They are the same units for ALL nations in the game....US, German, Brit, Soviet, and, yes, even Rumanian. They don't represent individual planes....there is no choice on type of plane, type of bomb load, or how many. They are abstract....if you want specific planes with specific loads

You say that they are the same for a everybody however different nations do have different loadouts for their medium bombers.

UK - 2 med bombers = 1 x 500lb bomb
Ger - 2 med bombers = 1 x 250kg bomb
US - 2 med bombers = 1 x 250lb bomb
Russian - 2 med bombers = 1 x 250kg bomb & 1 x 120kg bomb
Japan - 2 med bombers = 1 x 120kg bomb & 1 x 60kg bomb

And the cost varies dramatically too.

Therefore I have always followed the policy of using allied equipment i.e. If playing as Germany I use Italian transport planes in the early war as their capacity is double the german planes & they cost less per carried point etc. As long as you stick to a reasonable composition I can't see any problem with this i.e. No US fighters alongside German Tigers

TC

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:31 am

Originally posted by Topcat:
...I have always followed the policy of using allied equipment i.e. If playing as Germany I use Italian transport planes in the early war as their capacity is double the german planes & they cost less per carried point etc.

Thanks for the tip!

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 7:23 am

Originally posted by Grumble:

Another suggestion is to take advantage of abstraction.
Since Romanian bombers carried lighter loads than the "average" bomber represented in the game, just force the Romanian player to use only the "2 Med bomber" option.
This would accurately simulate both the presence of such support, and the fact that due to light bombloads, in game terms that support however many "IRL" is "equal" to 2 bombers.

Grumble, why do not introduce a new section (Ligh bombers) for this ? It's the best way !
And for your knowledge, I put this questions because I work with Don to corect Romania section wich is a real mess. People like Sven play the game without any concerns about reality accuracy. My target (I believe even Matrix one's) is to make from SPWAW a unique game in the world.

Leo.

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 7:26 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flashfyre:
[QB]Gavris, Level bombers are just that...a flight of bombers flying at high altitude, whose mission is to bomb a certain piece of geography. They are a representation of the massed bomber squadrons, and carry 'generic' heavy loads to simulate the intense carpet-bombing prevalent in WWII. They are the same units for ALL nations in the game....US, German, Brit, Soviet, and, yes, even Rumanian. They don't represent individual planes....there is no choice on type of plane, type of bomb load, or how many. They are abstract....if you want specific planes with specific loads, you have a couple of choices:

1) Make your own with the editor. Then you can assign whatever bomb load you feel is correct.

2) Give us some factual data, including links to websites and book names (and authors) so we can try to put them in.

3) Accept the bombers as they are, and enjoy the game.

Neither is good. Because I work with Don Llewelyn to make a future fixing of the mess in Romania section. That's all.

Leo.

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 7:28 am

Originally posted by SAMWolf:

Here's a place to start:

Romanian Aircraft of WW II

Not enough material because I have need of data characteristics, not only names.

Leo.

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 7:39 am

Excuse me, Gavris....perhaps I was unclear in my post. The level bombers in the game represent an abstract flight of high-level bombers. There is no such animal, in any OOB, as a Light Bomber.

Now, as to your work with Don: great. Glad to hear it. But I repeat: there are no Light Bomber units in the game. If you and Don want to make one for the Rumanian Oob, go ahead. I would caution you, though....verify everything you do with Paul Vebber and Mike Wood. We on the Tiger Team are doing so, to prevent any gross imbalance or gameplay errors. If you don't clear your work through them, expect some of it to be disqualified.

And, on a final note, you have made what I consider a personal attack on a fellow gamer; namely, Sven. His 'forum personality' may be irritating to you, but I believe he strives for accuracy and reality for this game. I am inclined to believe, however, that you fit the comment moreso than he; if I am mistaken, I do apologize.

We would like to help you with this project; but we are hindered by your failure to cite references and data that can be verified, and your demands for things that this game is not capable of.

I wish you the best of luck in your crusade to correct the Rumanian force structure.

SAMWolf · Post by **SAMWolf** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 8:47 am

Originally posted by Gavris Narcis:

Not enough material because I have need of data characteristics, not only names.

Leo.

Once you have the names. You can use Google to search for more data using the names. You may not find everything about the entire Romanian AF during WW II in once place.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: SAMWolf ]

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 6:46 pm

Grumble, why do not introduce a new section (Ligh bombers) for this ? It's the best way !

Well, simply because one WOULD have to introduce it. Level bombers are handled exactly like off-board artillery now, completely abstractly. Again if you simply reduce the amount of "medium" bomber support, using the modeled bomber that most closely fits Romanian aircraft, in GAME TERMS it will "feel" about right in terms of average destructive effect per mission.
I suggest before you start generating a lot of aircraft OOB slots, you consult with the OOB Tiger Team and see if your work's ever going to see the light of day. (Of course, if you're doing it for your own personal play, go for it.)
This game's rapidly moving into maintenance-mode in its software cycle, major changes are highly unlikely. The gist of development work is in the CL-series. You might wish to contribute some of your work to that forum, if you haven't already.