A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.
Joel,
The game definitely seems more sensitive to staging issues, and priority is also important. The best I have done to max Soviet losses is 281 vs 3,345 but 28 of those were recon which is still useful for the way I play. If I'm looking to minimise Axis losses I can get ~130 v 2500-2600.
Using very high priority missions you can clear the way through for follow-on bomber only missions at a lower priority. I was however fairly upset by the Air 2 Air ftr losses on Turn 1. Definitely need those extra BF109F4s Darkhorse mentioned.
Of course it doesn't always work, as shown by this intercepted attack on Odessa but even here I judged it worth the losses as those that survived successfully bombed over 130 ac on the ground.
The question is what you end up with after the first full turn, because you can kill a lot of aircraft during ground support missions, and overrunning damaged aircraft at airfields. You can also lost a lot if you run ground support out of range of your fighters, but that's something you can generally control if you're careful not to use your bombers past fighter range. It's not just how many you take out (or lose) on Day 1, its how things total up for the week.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
Agreed re ground support. However, the benefits of a long-range aggressive campaign against the good (e.g. Mig 3) fighter bases means that you can take a bit more risk (doesn't always work) as most of the remaining Soviet fighters are lower quality and hence you can still shoot them down in droves with Me-109s even when equipped with drop-tanks. I don't often use drop tanks after the first couple of turns as the chances of them losing too many ac in air-to-air combat increases but my aim in the first couple of turns isn't necessarily targeted at the aircraft but pilots. This was how my turn ended up and I was pretty happy that this is repeatable given a careful use of bombers (i.e. take risk with ground support where you are confident the fighter cover is denuded) in ground support. You can increase this quite a bit by 'gamey' tactics such as large attacks on border units to suck-in hordes of unescorted bombers but I avoid these unless the air support is needed to ensure the battle outcome as that goes against Blitzkrieg principles of attacking where the enemy isn't and I try and play historically rather than try and game the engine.
Overall, the new aircraft rules in 1.51 seem much improved over the last few iterations. It remains to be seen how the flak changes play-out over future turns but I'm looking forward to testing it. A big thanks to all the devs for the ongoing support to the game.
Why suddenly no? All the losses that the Germans inflict with strikes on airfields are not a modification of the first move? Already on the second day of the air phase, there are almost no bonuses, you will not be able to even 20% of what you can on the first day. Not to mention losses, or rather their absence on the first day.
On T1 Day 1you got a bonus of astonishing size already. As Shaggy said. Why would the Dev give you an100% accurate pre-set AD-Set for this Turn additionally to this. They could rather just skip this day/week and remove the planes by not even spawning/placing them instead, or just bring you from 6/41 to 6/45 by pressing F12 once and showing you the correct casualties of the whole war.
By suggesting/feeling some peoples way and feeling like there must be 100% accuracy without acting yourself 100% accurate, I suggest watching Documentaries or digging into some archives or read some biased book about Eastern front, instead of playing a game where you need to plan an attack with thousands of planes and ground units yourself to be as good as it can be/historically was.
If you recreate every hostorical Air AD exactly as they were and maneuver all your ground forces as they progressed during the first week, then comparing the numbers and complaining about not being historically valid numbers would give you some serious seriousness which the Devs would have a reason to think about.
I'd actually like to see such 100% historic T1 recreation AAR with the current state of the game. So...
“Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics.”
In fact, this is almost impossible to recreate, because the game does not know and cannot calculate the chase of the aircraft. Soviet I-16 and I-15 fighters, for example, could not catch up with the Ju-88, leaving in a gentle dive.
The Germans, using this superiority, could bomb with impunity in depth. For example, Kyiv was bombed by 6 roofing felts by 9 German bombers. Walking without cover. This did not bring a military result, but civilians, grandmother, daughter and mother died. Known history.
Why was this done? Unclear.
Because the Germans clearly did not have enough aircraft to solve strike tasks of the first priority.
In addition, the losses of Soviet aviation, although on the first day they were heavy, were far from the same as in the game. In the game, after the first day, you will not inflict losses on Soviet aircraft, but rather suffer only losses.
While on June 23-25, attacks on airfields continued, in depth. With the use of bombers and without cover by fighters, using uncomplicated maneuvers and techniques.
Specialized cluster munitions were also used. Which sowed the runway of airfields with small bombs with various timers from 5 minutes to 15 and two hours. That did not allow the use of the field before clearance.
Which is also missing in the game.
Further attacks after June 22 on the 23rd-25th were also quite successful, although less massive because the needs of the ground forces began to attract the forces of the Luftwaffe.
And the rapid advance of the Germans did not allow Soviet aviation to restore damaged aircraft.
In general, I don't like how the air war is implemented for the German player in terms of strike aircraft, He-111, Ju-88, Ju-87 and others.
Apart from the Ju-87, other aircraft are too useless.
While they have historically been able to deal significant blows to infrastructure, for example they have been able to paralyze entire railway stations with their actions. For example, rear 40A at the beginning of Operation Blau.
In the game, the German players either do not use their strike aircraft because they suffer losses without cover, or they do not see a dozen destroyed guns using their He-111s, but when trying to hit the warehouses. They do not see the direct effect of their actions, which they refuse from this as well.
Although already on June 23, German fighters could chase individual cars and wagons, suppressing artillery. Encountering no opposition.
In the game, fighters are not effective as attack aircraft, although in fact both Soviet and German fighters could successfully solve such problems.
As an example, in some cases, the regiments on the I-15 and I-153 could operate more successfully than the regiments on the Il-2.
Due to the fact that the personnel knew the I-153 aircraft and did not know the Il-2, as well as the I-153, for example, provided the best combat maneuverability of the aircraft when solving assault missions, which the Il-2 could not, being heavy and not very maneuverable machine. Especially with regard to climbing in a combat turn.
I just ran the default AD for version 1.51, and removing the Recon and Ground Support missions (both are not needed for turn 1), I had the following results:
German losses:
216 (of which 3 were fighters, 21 were fighter-bombers, 21 were tactical bombers and 171 were level bombers)
Soviet losses:
3,505 (of which 567 were fighters, 1,607 were fighter-bombers, 342 were tactical bombers, 807 were level bombers, 142 were recon, 33 were transport and 7 were torpedo bombers)
This was just the Air War phase, not even started the ground campaign / phase yet.
For the first turn I have always recommend no Ground Support and no Recon.
So I think this is acceptable.
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2 SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator Tester for WDS games
What is happening now with the staging changes is that far, far more Soviet aircraft will participate in defensive ground support during Axis turn 1. I've bombed with custom .45 directives around 4300 Soviet aircraft in the air phase.
I switched to patch .51 after that and so far, there are about 400 Soviet aircraft losses in the action phase for Army Group South alone (and I am nowhere near done with AGS) totaling around 4700 losses so far. Hundreds of extra planes are flying from bases that are farther away from the border.
By the end of the first day, the Soviets had lost over 1,200 airplanes all along the front as German spearheads marched toward the east deeper into the Soviet Union.
On the second day of the invasion one Russian archival source revealed the Soviet Air Force losses had reached a staggering total of 3,922 aircraft, with the downing of just 78 Luftwaffe aircraft.
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2 SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator Tester for WDS games
Strategy for Defeat
The Luftwaffe
1933-1945
By Williamson Murray
BARBAROSSA: THE INVASION
In the early morning hours of June 22 from the Baltic to the Black Sea, the
Wehrmacht stormed across the frontier . German aircraft, crossing the frontier at
high altitudes in order not to alert Soviet defenses, dropped to attack altitude and
pulverized Russian airfields . Still unalerted, Soviet air units had their aircraft lined
up in neat rows facilitating the Luftwaffe's task. Those few aircraft that managed to
scramble soon fell to the guns of German fighters . The extent of the surprise is
shown by Fliegerkorps IV, which on the first day reported destroying 142 enemy
aircraft on the ground and only 16 in the air ." By noon of the 22nd, the Russians
had lost 528 aircraft on the ground and 210 in the air in the western district . For the
entire front, Russian losses totaled no less than 1,200 planes in the first eight and
one-half hours."
The situation on the ground forced the Soviets to commit their remaining air
resources in a desperate effort to stabilize the collapse. Ill-trained, ill-equipped, and
ill-prepared, Soviet aircrews floundered in impossible formations and in obsolete
aircraft;' the slaughter of Soviet aircraft resembled the destruction of the Japanese
fleet air arm in the "Mariana's turkey shoot" of 1943 . The attacks on Soviet
airbases and ground support organizations led to a general collapse of the Russian
air force's ability to control its units . Desperate appeals, radioed in clear text from
air units to higher headquarters, gave the impression of a thoroughly chaotic
situation. Milch recorded in his diary the destruction of 1,800 Soviet aircraft on
the first day, followed by 800 on June 23, 557 on the 24th, 351 on the 25th, and 300
on the 26th." Whether, in fact, the Luftwaffe had managed to destroy that many
aircraft is beside the point; a defeat of immense proportion had overtaken the Red
Air Force-a catastrophe overshadowed only by events on the ground.
pages 81-82
The underlined above is mine, that total is 3,808 Soviet aircraft from the 22nd of June till the 26th of June. Not even a week!
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2 SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator Tester for WDS games
The air losses suffered by Fliegerkorps VIII in twelve days (August 10 to 21)
while supporting I Army Corps in its effort to cut the main Moscow-Leningrad
railroad dramatizes the impact of attrition on Lufttivaffe strength . In this period
supporting the advance of one army corps, Fliegerkorps VIII lost 10.3 percent of its
aircraft (destroyed or written off as the result of operations), with 54.5 percent of its
aircraft damaged but reparable . During this action, the air corps had 3 .9 percent of
its flying personnel killed, 5 .7 percent wounded, and 2.9 percent listed as missing
for a 12.5 percent total casualty rate .
Some charts on page 89.
Page 93.
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2 SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator Tester for WDS games
More interesting stuff .. but I must be diverging down a rabbit trail ...
In every sense, Stalingrad was a grievous defeat. Beside the boost to Russian
morale and the blow to the German army's strength, it had no less of an impact on
the Luftwaffe . The air transport forces suffered devastating losses . By February 3,
the Luftwaffe had lost 269 Ju 52's, 169 He 111's, 9 Fw 200's, 1 Ju 290, 5 He 177's,
and 42 Ju 86's, for a grand total of 495 aircraft ." These losses represented the
equivalent of five flying wings or an entire Fliegerkorps. Perhaps as important
was the negative impact on training programs, especially those training
multiengine pilots . Particularly devastating were crew losses among instrument
instructors.
Fascinating book none-the-less.
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2 SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator Tester for WDS games
At the moment there is a big difference between the real June 22 and the game.
On the first day of the game turn, high losses of Soviet aviation rush in, which rushed over a ~ week of battles.
Attacks on airfields after June 22 did not bring any benefit, although the problems of Soviet aviation still remained and were aggravated by poor conditions on the ground in a real situation.
In addition, there were raids on airfields, and even in 43 years they gave some success for the German side, however, like Soviet raids on airfields, in some cases they led to important successes. What in the game to achieve is quite difficult, if not impossible.
It is necessary to reconsider the approach to attacks on airfields, at the moment, in fact, strikes at airfields after June 22, and the Soviets at all. There is no point. After the nerf, the Soviets cannot inflict any significant losses on the Germans on the airfields, and the Germans cannot destroy the Soviets on the airfields already on June 23 in the game.
the transition should become smoother, and attacks on airfields should become more effective and lead to some results after the first move. Yes, even at 44. An uncovered airfield on which many aircraft are based that are not yet involved in aviation missions can become a tasty target for any enemy.
ShaggyHiK wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:10 pm
At the moment there is a big difference between the real June 22 and the game.
In addition, there were raids on airfields, and even in 43 years they gave some success for the German side, however, like Soviet raids on airfields, in some cases they led to important successes. What in the game to achieve is quite difficult, if not impossible.
I have to say it "is" easily achievable to get excellent bombing results against bombing airfields after turn 1 with good results even in current patch with the Soviets and/or the Germans. I won't show it but I am sure people can figure it out.
I don’t think so, in order to achieve some kind of result for the German, you need to use the same forces that were taken in the raids on Moscow.
Then you can try to inflict losses without incurring sensitive ones.
After the interception fix, it became quite difficult to get to the airfields; fighters are much better at intercepting and shooting down a large number of bombers.
So I would like to see your examples from the latest beta.
