1307.3 Strange ESM pattern with J-16D

[BDukes]

Ok I've got A WZ-7 and some J-16's including J-16D Variants. The WZ-7, on its own correctly gets an ESM contact on the AWG-9 down bearing. Now when I add the J-16Ds the contacts jump north and south of the J-16Ds but not down bearing. Something is up with the sensor fusion stuff.

To see.

Load WZ-7 save and observe the down bearing ESM contact.
Load the WZ-7 save and notice the stage contact jumps north and south.

[BDukes]

Oops please move to tech support.

M

[thewood1]

I don't think this is any kind of sensor fusion issue. Its specific to the Generic Comms Monitor that is on the J-16D. If I remove all units and leave one J-16D, it has the same issue. I remove all PLAAF aircraft and insert a German RQ-4E with the same ESM sensor, you get the exact same issue. There are less than a dozen aircraft with that sensor so probably any issues don't get exercised very often. Doesn't solve the problem, but maybe points in the direction.

On the other hand, not even sure its an issue. I have no idea how that sensor works in real life. Maybe it is extraordinarily inaccurate. Maybe it only tells you something is present, but no specific bearing.

btw, its the APY-9 radar on the E-2. The AWG-9 is the F-14 radar.

edit: Took the original scenario posted and removed the Generic Comms Monitor from both J-16Ds. The E-2 detection stabilized as expected. Kind of curious why the J-16D's ESM unit never picks the E-2 up. Haven't looked at detection types yet.

[BDukes]

I don't think this is any kind of sensor fusion issue. Its specific to the Generic Comms Monitor that is on the J-16D. If I remove all units and leave one J-16D, it has the same issue. I remove all PLAAF aircraft and insert a German RQ-4E with the same ESM sensor, you get the exact same issue. There are less than a dozen aircraft with that sensor so probably any issues don't get exercised very often. Doesn't solve the problem, but maybe points in the direction.

On the other hand, not even sure its an issue. I have no idea how that sensor works in real life. Maybe it is extraordinarily inaccurate. Maybe it only tells you something is present, but no specific bearing.

btw, its the APY-9 radar on the E-2. The AWG-9 is the F-14 radar.

edit: Took the original scenario posted and removed the Generic Comms Monitor from both J-16Ds. The E-2 detection stabilized as expected. Kind of curious why the J-16D's ESM unit never picks the E-2 up. Haven't looked at detection types yet.

If you don't know how the sensor works in real life, why are you answering?

The WZ-7 is the original scenario alone. It doesn't have any J-16Ds in it. The second scenario has all three.

The weirdness is you've got a more accurate fix with the first scenario (WZ-7) than the one with the J-16Ds.

Mike

[thewood1]

I'm just saying its the J-16D causing the issue. Its comm sensor seems weird. I just ran your scenario and watched the contact listings and noted that the weirdness only happens when the J-16D cycles, not the drone.

[KnightHawk75]

Is this not the issue of just contact detection jitter? Ie when you have multiple esm detection, say one of high quality, and then one of low quality, it jumps around from high detection to low detection. Ie you could have some high quality source that nearly nails it's exact location and the contact is updated, then a sat comes along with a low quality detection with massive ambiguity and the contact is updated to that low detection, and back and forth it goes.

Basically it doesn't know the prior detection were more accurate...and arguably information wise...that's probably right in the scene at that point, it shouldn't, and as annoying as it is it should jitter. Maybe it could mesh the last couple detections...but I think it already does.


WZ7 (generic sigint ~yr2000 #5731, -95 sensitivity, direction accuracy 2.0, precisionid capable:yes, loss: 10, scanrate: 20)
J-16D (esm #5798 -90 sensitivity (less sensitive), direction accuracy 1.0 (more accurate), precisionid capable: yes; loss: 10, scanrate:20)
J-16D (Generic Comms monitor 5260, -107.0 (extremely sensitive), direction accuracy 180.0, precisionid cap:yes,freq: 30-500mhz,loss:10,scanrate:20)

So the J-16D generic comms detection is stepping on the WZ-7's and J-16D's esm better overall detection, because the generic comms while more sensitive is _horrible_ at directional accuracy.

thewood is correct that if you destroy\remove the comms monitoring, then you will no longer see the problem, namely because the 5798 and 5731 sensors while different aren't THAT different and are not introducing wildly different positions to cause as much noticeable contact location jitter, though there may be little.


The following Comms Monitor flagged sensors that have 180 as direction accuracy numbers of 180 are, they also have the best sensitivity assuming -107 isn't a flag for behavior:
211 EN/Mk9000 Elnath [TRS-600] (90's)
1096 EN/Mk9500 Regulus [Comms Monitor] (20's)
5260 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 2000s
5833 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 1980s
5835 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 1970s
6495 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 2020s
6496 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 2010s

All the rest in the database range from 1.0 to 10.
Unrelated there are 5 other sensors that have 180 for that field that are not comms monitors.
Maybe that's by design or 180 is a marker for handling things a certain other way i simply do not know.
If not perhaps...maybe those should be tweaked in not markers, particularly the later decades?

I tend to replace all generic comms monitors when it's important to the scene with #695's (-95, 30mhz to 2.5gig , and 3.0 direction), or remove them when comms detection and jamming is not a thing. I get tired of fighting the jitter and the database, even if I understand it, even if it's kinda real, because sometimes it seriously screw up initial targeting from second to second.

Kind of curious why the J-16D's ESM unit never picks the E-2 up.

Most likely because the J-16 ESM only detects D band (1-2gig) and above, and the APY-9 operates in band-C (500-1000mhz). Where as the generic sigint 2000 (wz7) detects band C, as does the generic comint just barely i it's 30hz-500mz ranges. Shame the in-game sensor page doesn't show bands for ESM's\comm monitors.

[Parel803]

KH,
Did you pick the data on the ESM systems directly from the DB? And it is correct that you cannot find is in the in-game DB?
Would it be oké to ask for more Data on ESM (R&C)? If it isn't already done of course.
best regards GJ

[KnightHawk75]

KH,
Did you pick the data on the ESM systems directly from the DB? And it is correct that you cannot find is in the in-game DB?
Would it be oké to ask for more Data on ESM (R&C)? If it isn't already done of course.
best regards GJ

Yes looked it up in the DB directly. The sensor page didn't display the freq bands for ESM or Comms devices for me, it does display for OECM devices, and for the radar sensors for example though. I forget off hand (dont have game open), if it does it for DECM, not that it was involved in the question about the scene - just saying. Feel free to see for yourself and throw it in the suggestions thread if you want.

[BDukes]

Is this not the issue of just contact detection jitter? Ie when you have multiple esm detection, say one of high quality, and then one of low quality, it jumps around from high detection to low detection. Ie you could have some high quality source that nearly nails it's exact location and the contact is updated, then a sat comes along with a low quality detection with massive ambiguity and the contact is updated to that low detection, and back and forth it goes.

Basically it doesn't know the prior detection were more accurate...and arguably information wise...that's probably right in the scene at that point, it shouldn't, and as annoying as it is it should jitter. Maybe it could mesh the last couple detections...but I think it already does.


WZ7 (generic sigint ~yr2000 #5731, -95 sensitivity, direction accuracy 2.0, precisionid capable:yes, loss: 10, scanrate: 20)
J-16D (esm #5798 -90 sensitivity (less sensitive), direction accuracy 1.0 (more accurate), precisionid capable: yes; loss: 10, scanrate:20)
J-16D (Generic Comms monitor 5260, -107.0 (extremely sensitive), direction accuracy 180.0, precisionid cap:yes,freq: 30-500mhz,loss:10,scanrate:20)

So the J-16D generic comms detection is stepping on the WZ-7's and J-16D's esm better overall detection, because the generic comms while more sensitive is _horrible_ at directional accuracy.

thewood is correct that if you destroy\remove the comms monitoring, then you will no longer see the problem, namely because the 5798 and 5731 sensors while different aren't THAT different and are not introducing wildly different positions to cause as much noticeable contact location jitter, though there may be little.


The following Comms Monitor flagged sensors that have 180 as direction accuracy numbers of 180 are, they also have the best sensitivity assuming -107 isn't a flag for behavior:
211 EN/Mk9000 Elnath [TRS-600] (90's)
1096 EN/Mk9500 Regulus [Comms Monitor] (20's)
5260 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 2000s
5833 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 1980s
5835 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 1970s
6495 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 2020s
6496 Generic Comms Monitor [Advanced] 2010s

All the rest in the database range from 1.0 to 10.
Unrelated there are 5 other sensors that have 180 for that field that are not comms monitors.
Maybe that's by design or 180 is a marker for handling things a certain other way i simply do not know.
If not perhaps...maybe those should be tweaked in not markers, particularly the later decades?

I tend to replace all generic comms monitors when it's important to the scene with #695's (-95, 30mhz to 2.5gig , and 3.0 direction), or remove them when comms detection and jamming is not a thing. I get tired of fighting the jitter and the database, even if I understand it, even if it's kinda real, because sometimes it seriously screw up initial targeting from second to second.

Kind of curious why the J-16D's ESM unit never picks the E-2 up.

Most likely because the J-16 ESM only detects D band (1-2gig) and above, and the APY-9 operates in band-C (500-1000mhz). Where as the generic sigint 2000 (wz7) detects band C, as does the generic comint just barely i it's 30hz-500mz ranges. Shame the in-game sensor page doesn't show bands for ESM's\comm monitors.

Thanks as always for digging into issues. You're awesome.

Up to the devs. I will say (probably safely) that most players won't dive into the DB to make sure they've got optimal combinations. Editors might after a beta test, maybe

Now added to my list regardless!

Mike

[Dimitris]

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