Lets try this one more time - Bottlenecks in the Pacific Axe vs Togus (J)

[JanSako]

That is funny how different the perceptions can be

In my ongoing game as Japan it is the opposite.
- I cannot find almost any of his convoys (he must be running the all the way at the S edge of the map or something)
- If I do find some closer to the area of operations, the subs either miss or they try to shoot the escorts (& miss & then die at the hands of escorts). I feel like IJN boats are now single-shot weapons (Dec '42). I did have some good luck but man it's rare!

OTOH I lost one of the big CV battles due to a Mk10 torp. Akagi, already slightly damaged prior, got the total dam pushed just past 50% so could not launch & the 40 strong CAP not being there made all the difference... Many more ships damaged or sunk outright by Dutch subs, not unexpected.
I agree that the USN fleet subs are not (yet) that much of a threat, let's see in a couple of months.

[RangerJoe]

Ah, yes. The ASW problem.

Make larger but more protected convoys if you can. Identify the few AVs that can operate aircraft while moving. There is at least 1 US AV and 1 Dutch AV that can do so in the normal game. If you can, split the larger US air unit on the US AV so 1 section can perform NIGHT Naval search, 1 section DAY Naval search, then the last section DAY ASW search at 1,000 feet. Move from base to base that has air units on day and NIGHT searches if at all possible. Don't worry about search arcs for the mobile Naval air searches since they should automatically search all hexes in a 4 hex radius. I know, it can slow things down this way but that is better than losing ships, especially losing whole ground units and/or air units.

Have xAK and AK ships that you do not yet have protection for your convoys move to the East Coast and ship supplies to Cape Town. The supplies can go later to either India for SEAC including China, or to Australia. They can move the supplies to the combat zones if those convoys can be protected if the protection is needed. This could also be used to move supplies to Panama or the Falkland Islands as well for movement to the combat zones later. This is a good use for the ships that convert to APAs and AKAs until they can be converted since they are safe from Japanese attacks.

You can also use lonely xAKs to move supplies along the south edge of the map to New Zealand or Australia.

Find some B17 units that don't leave, keep them flying B17Ds then LB30s set on Naval Search and/or ASW. Those have a long ASW search radius but aren't that good in combat. Also, the Hudson/A29s are also good for this, better when they have the longer range and radar.

Even Whirlaways are good with a heavy concentration of ASW search near the important ports.

Once you get some good ASW vessels with an ASW rating of 6 or more, then set up Hunter Killer ASW TFs with trained crews and aggressive ship captains with a good overall commander, then set them to attack enemy submarines in the Coastal areas if at all possible.

If you have smaller convoys set for different destinations, run them together but following a Hunter Killer ASW TF to hopefully clear the way with at least one of the mobile air ASW ships if at all possible. Then break off the smaller convoys when they are near their destinations but hopefully with stronger escorts.

Also, change your convoy routes frequently.

I hope that those suggestions help.

[Axe1999]

Well, I went out looking for my Midway and I got it. Didn't go as well as real life one though. This leaves Yorktown as the only US carrier still afloat, if he makes it through torpedo alley. I definitely gave some as well, if I had to take a guess I think Shoho, Kaga, Hiyo and Junyo sank. I'd love to have taken Akagi as well, but doubt 2 bombs were enough. Key takeaways: I was spotted and attacked first, even though I had overlapping land based and TF based search, 75 P-40s from Ndeni were to fly LRCAP, didnt show up. I suspect because it was at the end of their range.

Gonna let this sit over the weekend, marinate a bit to let me figure out what to do next. Operation Watchtower will probably pull back now.,

Morning Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 117,138

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 50
B5N2 Kankoh x 95
D3A1 Myojo x 115

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 72

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 7 destroyed
B5N2 Kankoh: 28 damaged
B5N2 Kankoh: 7 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Myojo: 11 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Myojo: 6 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CL Helena
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA New Orleans
DD Lang
CLAA Atlanta
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 2
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Benham
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CA Salt Lake City
DD Sterett
DD Wilson, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Pensacola
DD Helm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 117,138

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 11
B5N2 Kankoh x 15

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 19
F4F-4 Wildcat x 41

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kankoh: 8 destroyed, 2 damaged
B5N2 Kankoh: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, on fire
CV Hornet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 114,132

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 60

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 70
SBD-3 Dauntless x 119
TBF-1 Avenger x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 10 destroyed, 4 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CV Hiyo, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Nenohi
DD Shirayuki
CL Tama, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CS Chiyoda, Bomb hits 1
CA Chikuma
DD Minazuki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Suzuya, Bomb hits 1
DD Oyashio


Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Shoho
Fuel storage explosion on CV Junyo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Junyo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hiyo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Minazuki


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 114,132

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 32

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 5 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 114,132

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 24

Allied aircraft
TBF-1 Avenger x 15

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 5 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, heavy fires


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 114,132

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 22

Allied aircraft
TBF-1 Avenger x 15

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, on fire
CV Junyo, on fire


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 114,132

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 19

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 19
SBD-3 Dauntless x 71
TBF-1 Avenger x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 6 destroyed, 11 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Oyashio
DD Mikazuki
DD Nenohi, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CS Nisshin, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires
DD Yuzuki
DD Natsushio
CV Hiyo, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Ariake


Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Kaga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Junyo
Fuel storage explosion on CV Junyo
Ammo storage explosion on CV Hiyo
Fuel storage explosion on CV Hiyo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hiyo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CS Nisshin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 114,132

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 11

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
SBD-3 Dauntless x 28

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Kaga, on fire
CV Zuikaku
CS Nisshin, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Akagi, on fire
DD Nenohi, heavy fires


Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Junyo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring a Akagi class CV
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Nenohi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 117,138

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 18
B5N2 Kankoh x 48
D3A1 Myojo x 33

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kankoh: 25 damaged
B5N2 Kankoh: 5 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Myojo: 6 damaged
D3A1 Myojo: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 3, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, heavy fires
CA Louisville
CLAA San Juan
CL Helena
CLAA Atlanta, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CA New Orleans, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage


Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hornet
Fuel storage explosion on CV Enterprise

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 117,138

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Reisen x 10
B5N2 Kankoh x 10
D3A1 Myojo x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Reisen: 2 destroyed
B5N2 Kankoh: 7 damaged
B5N2 Kankoh: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Myojo: 2 destroyed, 10 damaged
D3A1 Myojo: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Hornet, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

[RangerJoe]

You can afford to trade carrier for carrier, the Japanese can not.

If you also sank the CS, they can become useful CVLs but are also useful ships just the way that they are.

If it is December if 1942, you will get some new carriers in a few months. The Essex class and the nice CVLs. Not to mention the CVEs plus the a Royal Navy CV for a couple of months. With the Yorktown, you should have at least a little striking force plus CVEs for defense.

Just keep bringing up supplies, build up your bases, keep a watch out for raids. Have units prepared for bases so when you can push forward again, you can do so quickly. As it is, you can still move forward with land based air protection for aerial coverage and searching. You might need to use your carrier forces to escort task forces forward if they are at risk of being attacked.

Also, don't depend too much on Land Based LRCAP. It would be better to have your CVEs full of fighters on CAP one hex behind the fleet CVEs. Or try to stay within a hex of a LBA base for protection.

[JanSako]

I don't think this this is a bad result at all. In fact you clipped his wings pretty good, more or less stopped any IJN offensive ambitions. They can still raid or do land offensives where they can get air superiority with LBA, but no way they can now threaten any islands where you are developed/dug in. The 4 smaller carriers left to him can break through any convoy escorts etc. but cannot support sustained air operations needed for something like Ceylon of Australia.

In this mod Japan does not have the capability to expand much beyond historical extent, can't even dream of Australia or NZ or other stuff we can see other players do in DBB & such.

The way they launched first strike is not surprising. Basically if they can see your CV TF covering an invasion or something like that, it is not too hard to position Kido within 15-17 hexes which is probably beyond your search unless you have it super focused. Then rush in & Banzai!

The biggest problem with attacking USN carriers that way is that a return strike ('only' 3 out of 5 yours launched, right?) will still savage Kido pretty bad. I would have probably tried a strike from 7 hexes ( with Vals set at 6) so you can't send an escorted counterstrike unless your CV TF 'reacts'.

This is what I see:

CVL Shoho - 7 bombs - KIA
CV Akagi - 2 bombs - also last report says 'on fire'
CV Kaga - 8 + 2 bombs - should be KIA BUT the last report says 'on fire' - not heavy damage.
CV Hiyo - 5 + 4 bombs - KIA
CV Junyo - 2 + 6 +2 bombs - KIA
CV Zuikaku ?

IMO those total 10 bombs on Kaga should have taken her out outright, is it possible that in fact another carrier was hit with some of them? Maybe take a look at the reports of which carrier wings were attacking so see which carriers were unable to launch. If you see Kaga's wings still striking in the afternoon, that would be a hint.

BTW, are you able to try for a night intercept with your remaining surface units? I did not see any BB's on his end & if you catch them, your CA's or even DD's can make him wish he brought some!

[BBfanboy]

Hate to say it, but I am not so sure Kaga is doomed. Sure, she took 10 bombs total, but no secondary explosions, no heavy smoke messages and nothing more than "on fire" suggest she could put out the fires and head for home. She's a tough old bird. Depending on the presence of airfields to take the planes from the sunk and damaged carriers, the aircraft losses might show a bit more about what sank - and the relative air losses on both sides are also important in assessing the strategic impact. Could you show any of that info?

[Axe1999]

You can afford to trade carrier for carrier, the Japanese can not.

If you also sank the CS, they can become useful CVLs but are also useful ships just the way that they are.

If it is December if 1942, you will get some new carriers in a few months. The Essex class and the nice CVLs. Not to mention the CVEs plus the a Royal Navy CV for a couple of months. With the Yorktown, you should have at least a little striking force plus CVEs for defense.

Just keep bringing up supplies, build up your bases, keep a watch out for raids. Have units prepared for bases so when you can push forward again, you can do so quickly. As it is, you can still move forward with land based air protection for aerial coverage and searching. You might need to use your carrier forces to escort task forces forward if they are at risk of being attacked.

Also, don't depend too much on Land Based LRCAP. It would be better to have your CVEs full of fighters on CAP one hex behind the fleet CVEs. Or try to stay within a hex of a LBA base for protection.

It is August '42. New Guinea axis of advance is still happening as it doesnt depend on CV cover. Solomons are in question, at least how to get to Guadalcanal. Marshall Islands axis of advance is still way in the future with this happening. Right now Im very worried if I can flee my APs away from his surviving carriers, as all of them are two hexes S of Lunga. Losing those will destroy my amphibious capabilities for a while.

[Axe1999]

I don't think this this is a bad result at all. In fact you clipped his wings pretty good, more or less stopped any IJN offensive ambitions. They can still raid or do land offensives where they can get air superiority with LBA, but no way they can now threaten any islands where you are developed/dug in. The 4 smaller carriers left to him can break through any convoy escorts etc. but cannot support sustained air operations needed for something like Ceylon of Australia.

In this mod Japan does not have the capability to expand much beyond historical extent, can't even dream of Australia or NZ or other stuff we can see other players do in DBB & such.

The way they launched first strike is not surprising. Basically if they can see your CV TF covering an invasion or something like that, it is not too hard to position Kido within 15-17 hexes which is probably beyond your search unless you have it super focused. Then rush in & Banzai!

The biggest problem with attacking USN carriers that way is that a return strike ('only' 3 out of 5 yours launched, right?) will still savage Kido pretty bad. I would have probably tried a strike from 7 hexes ( with Vals set at 6) so you can't send an escorted counterstrike unless your CV TF 'reacts'.

This is what I see:

CVL Shoho - 7 bombs - KIA
CV Akagi - 2 bombs - also last report says 'on fire'
CV Kaga - 8 + 2 bombs - should be KIA BUT the last report says 'on fire' - not heavy damage.
CV Hiyo - 5 + 4 bombs - KIA
CV Junyo - 2 + 6 +2 bombs - KIA
CV Zuikaku ?

IMO those total 10 bombs on Kaga should have taken her out outright, is it possible that in fact another carrier was hit with some of them? Maybe take a look at the reports of which carrier wings were attacking so see which carriers were unable to launch. If you see Kaga's wings still striking in the afternoon, that would be a hint.

BTW, are you able to try for a night intercept with your remaining surface units? I did not see any BB's on his end & if you catch them, your CA's or even DD's can make him wish he brought some!

KB is still very potent, if Kaga sank (Tracker shows her as such), and Akagi is back in couple months, he still has 5 out of 6 of original KB CVs. I never played Japan so I dont know how big of a hit those pilot and airframe losses, but it does seem to hit hard. I had very good nav search, two VP squadrons at Ontong Java with more interlocking arcs from Milne Bay and Ndeni, so they should have been spotted if they didnt come from Ocean Island direction. Im vectoring every SS available to Rabaul, I doubt if Kaga is alive it will risk limping to Truk. I have some 4-5 cruisers and 10-12DDs undamaged, but with Zuikaku intact and Akagi possibly still in fight Im not sure if I will charge in, if I dont catch them Im in very bad position come morning.

[Axe1999]

Hate to say it, but I am not so sure Kaga is doomed. Sure, she took 10 bombs total, but no secondary explosions, no heavy smoke messages and nothing more than "on fire" suggest she could put out the fires and head for home. She's a tough old bird. Depending on the presence of airfields to take the planes from the sunk and damaged carriers, the aircraft losses might show a bit more about what sank - and the relative air losses on both sides are also important in assessing the strategic impact. Could you show any of that info?

We both have airfields in range that could take losses, but I still lost 400 planes in total (ground+air+flak), almost the entirety of my naval aviation.About 150-200 for Japan. Would love to offer more data but Im away from PC till Monday.

[RangerJoe]

Well then, run fast with your APs but also send out a lot of small DD TFs with low aggression set, to play with the Japanese. You might also, as already suggested, have larger cruiser TFs also set to go play.

As far as setting up the Guadalcanal area for invasion, there are some smaller islands that you might be able to take with paratroopers and then set up fast APD and AVD runs for reinforcement and supplies along with bringing in engineers, parts of AAA units, and air support units. Once you get airfields built up along with the port somewhat, that can be your stepping stone. But also have some minefields set up to hinder enemy bombardments, S-boats, Dutch subs, plus even some fleet boats along with PT Boats.

Or even bypass Guadalcanal if he defends it with stronger unit . . .

[CaptBeefheart]

I was going to say build up one of those bases between Ndeni and Guadalcanal, but Ranger Joe beat me to it. I've gone against Ironman Japan where you essentially don't have CV parity until late in the day, so you have to get creative. You can ferry troops using fast transport TFs and Catalinas, and single xAKLs loaded amphibiously for the Caterpillars and extra supplies. Once you get barges incremental island hopping gets easier.

Cheers,
CB