Some thoughts on Exploration

[zgrssd]

I would like to get some more control over Exploration - and some extra options.

A list of all objects that haven't been fully surveyed.
At it's core, everything without that Green Exploration Checkmark. A simple list of objects, that fits naturally under exploration.

1/White:
I am not sure if the default filter should remove these.
Those are likely things where the exploration ship has been forced to flee due to hostiles. Or where we only got the exploration data from Pirates or a Map trade. The number of objects with that level can be substantial.
Maybe a Filter that excludes objects in others territories can help here?

Other Lists modifications
The New Mining Location, New Research Location, New Resort Locations and and any other Locations need a "not fully surveyed indicator and this should be taken into account for spot selection.
New Mining Locations and New Research Location should also indicate if it has been nailed down to a Resource or Ruin as next find.

Access to the Exploration Ship spread
As I understand it, Exploration Ships are spread over these tasks:
- Explore Planets
- Survey Planets
- Explore Asteroids
- Spy on enemy Systems
- I am guessing some salvaging is also in their job description

The Ships have to be split among those tasks. So that not too many do one at the exclusion of all others.
I would like access to those numbers. Ideally as a Advisor setting. So I can change how they are split up.

Deep Survey
After exploration and Survey have been exhausted, there might still be stuff to be found. I need a way to pay to explore further. And I would prefer if I didn't have to burden the Private Economy with a dud mining station to do it.
It would be perfectly fine if it was that slow - I just do not want to end up with a dud station!

I have several ideas for this one:
- one idea was to give us a exploration station, that we can put down there
- another solution would be to make this a Exploration Ship mission. Another thing for above list

A recent idea was to leverage the Mining Ships for this:
After the early game - unless there is some sudden shortage or a new resource found - those mining ships are not doing anything useful. All the important stuff is serviced by mining stations and freighters! They are just trying to eke out a living, delivering stuff with very little demand.

But what if we could pay them to (figuratively) dig for gold? Give me a option to place a "exploration bounty" onto a planet. Mining ships will seek out those spots with priority.
They will even go there if there isn't any resources to mine - they are here for information, after all*. Every exploration level they add, they get paid a little. Maybe 100 Credits from the Empire Cash? Nothing much, just enough that it seems worthwhile.

I get my planets explored, without risking burdening the private economy with money drains. They get paid a little. A classical win/win situation.

*If there are known resources, they will however also mine those. No reason to not do both.

[AKicebear]

+1 to the general suggestion that exploration should have it's own Global Order Queue - and add Espionage and Facilities to that list for completeness in the game.

[frankycl]

I would like to get some more control over Exploration - and some extra options.

A list of all objects that haven't been fully surveyed.
At it's core, everything without that Green Exploration Checkmark. A simple list of objects, that fits naturally under exploration.

Seconded !

But the other things in your post seem to be a bit cunfusing (at least to me):

1/White:
(...)

What is "1/White" ? (do you mean unexplored planets/moons ?)- and why should it/they be removed ?

And why should "a Filter that excludes objects in others territories" be of help here ? What's with the explored objects in the other territories / the ones that get included in other territories after the exloration ?

The New Mining Location, New Research Location, New Resort Locations and and any other Locations need a "not fully surveyed indicator and this should be taken into account for spot selection.

Why would you need this additionally when you could get this info out of the extra-exploration list from above ?
Those "New xy Location"-list are only for getting an overview of those economy-relevant locations and got nothing to do with exploration, imho.

New Mining Locations and New Research Location should also indicate if it has been nailed down to a Resource or Ruin as next find.

No - if you scan/survey something you can/should only see the things that have been detected by those actions - but NOT what is to be find with deeper/next scans/surveys.

Access to the Exploration Ship spread
As I understand it, Exploration Ships are spread over these tasks:
- Explore Planets
- Survey Planets
- Explore Asteroids
- Spy on enemy Systems
- I am guessing some salvaging is also in their job description

The Ships have to be split among those tasks. So that not too many do one at the exclusion of all others.
I would like access to those numbers. Ideally as a Advisor setting. So I can change how they are split up.

I think you messed up some things here:

1. You can already splitt your explores to
"Auto Explore" (= only explore safe space-objects, but the ALL of them in one system - one after another),
"Auto-Scout Systems" (= only reveal whats inside the system, without exporing anything else - one unknown system after another),
"Auto-Spy on Enemies" (= reveal enemy-positions, even if they are dangerous; "spy" in this context has nothing to do with intelligence-missions !).

2. Explore/Survey are not two different mission-/action-types you can do with your explorers, but only a different wording that's used for generally the same thing. It only depends on the rgarding tech you need to research for doing deeper scans or surveys.

3. Explore Asteroids is also NOT an extra action your explorers can perform (except when playing full manually). Asteroids are also space-objects that will be explored/surveyed - according to the above conroll-/splitting-options AND the needed tech to do so.

(I'm also not certain about salvaging, but since they (normaly) don't have cargo-space for this, I don't think that this is possible (and I never experienced it, too).)

So, to sum it up, they only things from your wishlist from above would be the "access to those numbers" (= new filters) and the "Advisor setting" - which I think wouldn't be a bad idea, indeed.

Deep Survey
After exploration and Survey have been exhausted, there might still be stuff to be found.
(...)

No, when the objects have been marked "COMPLETELY EXPLORED" (= green checkmark), there is nothing more to find/explore/survey (or should this be a new suggestion ?)

I have several ideas for this one:
- one idea was to give us a exploration station, that we can put down there

Hm - what should this new station be for / what can the players achieve with it, that they couldn't with other means ?

[zgrssd]

To answer frankyl

What is "1/White" ? (do you mean unexplored planets/moons ?)- and why should it/they be removed ?

And why should "a Filter that excludes objects in others territories" be of help here ? What's with the explored objects in the other territories / the ones that get included in other territories after the exloration ?

Yes, I meant the ones on Level 1 Exploration/white color coding.

My worry is that there are too many objects that are on this exploration level - simply by vitue of a ship popping in, realizing there are enemies and running off. So they would clutter up the list.

Why would you need this additionally when you could get this info out of the extra-exploration list from above ?
Those "New xy Location"-list are only for getting an overview of those economy-relevant locations and got nothing to do with exploration, imho.

"There might be another resource to find" is a Economically relevant information.

The Exploration list is for every object that isn't yet fully Explored.
I am the least sold on it for New Science Locations - simply because you always put down science stations wherever you can.
But for Mining and Resort Locations, it could act as a tiebreaker at least.

No - if you scan/survey something you can/should only see the things that have been detected by those actions - but NOT what is to be find with deeper/next scans/surveys.

I am confused about you disagreement.
In the game right now it sometimes says "unknown Resource" or "unknown Ruin".
Meaning it knows what type of thing will be found next, but you still have to spend exploration.

I think you messed up some things here:

1. I am not going through a list of 10-40 science ships to manually split them between 4+ kinds of Actions. That is the kind of stuff a Advisor setting should be

2. No, there is a difference between basic Exploration and Survey. Even the the UI does not clearly say it.
The Advanced Survey Module:
- very quickly (I think 1 times 120 seconds) reaches Exploration Level 15
- but then has to use Survey - spending 120 seconds per Exploration Point - to reach Level 25
So getting a planet from 1 to 25 costs:
1 times 120 seconds to hit level 15.
10 times 120 seconds to hit level 25.

This is how things have been explained as far back as pre-release. It still holds. Even if the UI faultily calls both "Exploration".

3. They definitely explore Asteroids last in every system they explore. So it is a separate step on the exploration ladder.

No, when the objects have been marked "COMPLETELY EXPLORED" (= green checkmark), there is nothing more to find/explore/survey (or should this be a new suggestion ?)

This whole post has been about the things that aren't marked as fully surveyed. Starting with the list at the start you found a good idea.

[zgrssd]

I made some images to explain it.

Here is the overall list that I picture, from the view of one System:

Unfinished Exploration List.png (2.31 MiB) Viewed 819 times

As you can clearly see, a lot of thing are on the 1/white level of exploration. Meaning the type is identified, not much else.
And well, the number of items with fulfilling that requirement can be substantial. So I do not think they should be on the list by default filtering. Still should definitely have a filter - just not be in filtering by default.

For more Information in New Mining Location

Unknown Items and Resource in the New Mining Locations Lists.png (984.97 KiB) Viewed 819 times

Tiwid is a idea case. Only the fact they know there is a unidentified resource brings it into that list in the first place.
And the Exploration status should just be part of the list anyway - because why not?

[frankycl]

To answer frankyl

That's a funny introduction - but you omitted th "c" in my profile-name (and I guess my wife will not be pleased about it, since "cl" are the initials of her forename )

Yes, I meant the ones on Level 1 Exploration/white color coding.

This is not "Level 1 Exploration" this is NO-exploration at all - you see it the moment a ship enters an unknown system (like with a setting of "Auto-Scout Systems").

My worry is that there are too many objects that are on this exploration level - simply by vitue of a ship popping in, realizing there are enemies and running off. So they would clutter up the list.

Ok, I understood now - and if the filtering would be optional, I think it's a good idea.

"There might be another resource to find" is a Economically relevant information.

No, it's not - in my opinion, because you don't know anything about WHAT resource is there to find and for what/where you could need it. - That's why such things (only) belong to exploration - in my opinion.

In the game right now it sometimes says "unknown Resource" or "unknown Ruin".
Meaning it knows what type of thing will be found next, but you still have to spend exploration.

Where do you get that information (do you have a screen to show this ?)
In my games (and in your screen from above) you only get "Unknown Items present" when not explored fully, but nothing about what could be behind these "Unknown Items".

1. I am not going through a list of 10-40 science ships to manually split them between 4+ kinds of Actions. That is the kind of stuff a Advisor setting should be

Where is the difference / what should this "Advisor" do/show you what is not in this list ? - You still would have to chose which ship you want for this or that missions/actions, no ? - And there wouldn't be much difference if you do this in "a list of 10-40 science ships" or 10-40 messages the advisor could show you, I think.

2. No, there is a difference between basic Exploration and Survey. (...) Even if the UI faultily calls both "Exploration".

Yes, there are different modules - but NO different missions you could choose from. It's always the same order, but your researched tech-level/modules that are installed determines what your explorers can/would do - that's what I meant.

3. They definitely explore Asteroids last in every system they explore. So it is a separate step on the exploration ladder.

No, don't think so - although your first sentence is right, the second isn't. Because with this logic every planet/moon that's scanned as the last in a system without Asteroids would also be "a separate step on the exploration ladder"
(However I could imagine that it would be nice to implement such feature (= only explore Asteroids), additionally. )

No, when the objects have been marked "COMPLETELY EXPLORED" (= green checkmark), there is nothing more to find/explore/survey (or should this be a new suggestion ?)

This whole post has been about the things that aren't marked as fully surveyed. Starting with the list at the start you found a good idea.

Well, but YOU wrote in the same post: "After exploration and Survey have been exhausted (...)" - That's what I was answering/commenting on.

[zgrssd]

This is not "Level 1 Exploration" this is NO-exploration at all - you see it the moment a ship enters an unknown system (like with a setting of "Auto-Scout Systems").

While the System View will display a "?" for exploration Level, the actually Exploration Level Integer on the Object will read "1".
0 (can't even select planet), 1 (white), Unknown Items Present (Yellow) and Fully Explored (Green) are the 4 exploration Level the game will track in the UI.


Please explain to me what do you think is "bad wrong-fu" with Tiwid showing a white "?" and a yellow [Not fully explored] Icon in the New mining Location list.

Because I can not figure out what possible argument you have for that position.

Unknown Items and Resource in the New Mining Locations Lists.png (984.97 KiB) Viewed 772 times

[frankycl]

Please explain to me what do you think is "bad wrong-fu" with Tiwid showing a white "?" and a yellow [Not fully explored] Icon in the New mining Location list.

Because I can not figure out what possible argument you have for that position.

A bug - maybe ? - or it might indicate that what "Unknown items" (including resources) are to find is still hidden, because they need deeper scans (e.g. because the resources, etc. are more valuable than others).

[zgrssd]

Please explain to me what do you think is "bad wrong-fu" with Tiwid showing a white "?" and a yellow [Not fully explored] Icon in the New mining Location list.

Because I can not figure out what possible argument you have for that position.

A bug - maybe ? - or it might indicate that what "Unknown items" (including resources) are to find is still hidden, because they need deeper scans (e.g. because the resources, etc. are more valuable than others).

I can not parse those sentences. Please elaborate:
1. Why do you think Tiwid should never show that information in the New Mining Location List, despite it being freely available on the planet.
2. What do you think is a bug here.

[frankycl]

Please elaborate:
1. Why do you think Tiwid should never show that information in the New Mining Location List, despite it being freely available on the planet.
2. What do you think is a bug here.

1. I never said it "should never show that information" - I only said that I think it doesn't NEED this additional information. Those lists (not only the one of the example from above) are - with reason - part of other categories and therefore don't need additional info you can get in the other categories, too (like e.g. with the exploration tab/lists), in my opinion.
(But of course, you can have your own/different opinion, too. )

2. The bug could be that it shows "unknown resources" (in the detail-window), although it should show the resources that were already discovered.

[zgrssd]

Please elaborate:
1. Why do you think Tiwid should never show that information in the New Mining Location List, despite it being freely available on the planet.
2. What do you think is a bug here.

1. I never said it "should never show that information" - I only said that I think it doesn't NEED this additional information. Those lists (not only the one of the example from above) are - with reason - part of other categories and therefore don't need additional info you can get in the other categories, too (like e.g. with the exploration tab/lists), in my opinion.
(But of course, you can have your own/different opinion, too. )

2. The bug could be that it shows "unknown resources" (in the detail-window), although it should show the resources that were already discovered.

You are still not making sense.

2. "Unknown Resource" is not a bug.
They spend Development time to make sure that appears there, when it should appear there.

I am not capable of understanding your logic here.
"Unknown Resource should not be on the list of new Mining Locations. That is not Economically relevant information"?
Like, how is that not economically relevant???
How could there is another resource to mine not be relevant for placing a mining station?

1. When X > 0, then 10+X > 10.
There is no question that if you have two locations:
A) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar
B) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar, Unknown Items present

Then B is Economically more viable to exploit.
It makes no Economic sense to hide that information!
I keep looking for that information - so clearly it is economically relevant!

[frankycl]

You are still not making sense.

Ok - you have your opinion (on what makes sense), and I have mine. Could we leave it by this (please) ?

2 last short explanations:

How could there is another resource to mine not be relevant for placing a mining station?

Because you would't know WHAT RESOURCES are there to mine additionally - and therefore also couldn't know what/how you could benefit from placing a mining-station there in comparison to other mining locations that would also have your "Unknown Items present"-mark - or that have resources that you really need.

(...)
A) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar
B) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar, Unknown Items present

In your example with Tiwid is wasen't like this - instead it was:

A) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar
B) ?? , Unknown Items present


That's all I want/have to say to this (it's getting late in Germany, anyway ) - sorry.

[zgrssd]

How could there is another resource to mine not be relevant for placing a mining station?

Because you would't know WHAT RESOURCES are there to mine additionally - and therefore also couldn't know what/how you could benefit from placing a mining-station there in comparison to other mining locations that would also have your "Unknown Items present"-mark - or that have resources that you really need.

When X>0, 10+X > 10.
It don't care if it is steel or Teletubby episodes that I am digging up. I care about:
1. There is a Extra Resource that mining around there will identify
2. I am planning where to put a Mining Station

Heck, this can even be a reason against putting that station there. Every resource will take Storage Space.

(...)
A) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar
B) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar, Unknown Items present

In your example with Tiwid is wasen't like this - instead it was:

A) 100% Steel, 50% Mebnar
B) ?? , Unknown Items present

I am talking about comparing two Apples, and you ask "yes, but what if one of them is a radioactive sentient planet?"

If you want to make a totally separate scenario, do so. Please don't try insane troll logic.