Allies Selling out to defend France.

[kjgokc2007]

There is a strategy where the Allies sell out all their research and build everything they can to defend France that makes this game unplayable.

The Axis can not deal with this strategy as the Allies will have more units then the Axis before long to defend France.

There needs to be restrictions on pulling Research points out to build units and countries need to be forced to put a percentage of income into Research.

The Axis have to be capable of taking out France or this game is just broken.

These cheese tactics will always be exploited by Human players if there is a way.

Just my two cents of input.

Extreme behavior that players use to abuse this game make it unplayable. Exploits verses Empty hexes to train experience is another problem.

I hope you look into this... Kenny.

[Elessar2]

We've had discussions on that strategy before.

I count 565 MPPs that the UK can get from selling all research. [Of course France starts with no chits at all] So, OK, that's 2 infantry armies or two tank corps. The Germans can easily match if not exceed that, esp. if they limit their own research investment, and keeping tabs on the enemy MPP investment screen can reveal this to them very early on. IOW this is a very dangerous strategy for the Allies because if it doesn't work the UK will be behind the Germans in tech for the rest of the game, which will also not provide sharing bonuses for the US and USSR.

A link to an AAR somewhere might be helpful.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

We've had discussions on that strategy before.

I count 565 MPPs that the UK can get from selling all research. [Of course France starts with no chits at all] So, OK, that's 2 infantry armies or two tank corps. The Germans can easily match if not exceed that, esp. if they limit their own research investment, and keeping tabs on the enemy MPP investment screen can reveal this to them very early on. IOW this is a very dangerous strategy for the Allies because if it doesn't work the UK will be behind the Germans in tech for the rest of the game, which will also not provide sharing bonuses for the US and USSR.

A link to an AAR somewhere might be helpful.

Yo High Risk Cheese.

[Taifun]

This is a very risky business for any Allied player. Selling all research is doom for the British Empire in the not to far future.
I have never tried it but 2 times that I have been targeted with this strategy by Allied players it ended badly for the Allies.

There is a strategy...

Extreme behavior that players use to abuse this game make it unplayable. Exploits verses Empty hexes to train experience is another problem.

I just hope that you are not referring yourself to our last game, because as you could see for yourself after the game ended, the British didn't sell any tech. BUT IT IS A PERFECTLY FAIR STRATEGY IF ANY PLAYER CHOSE TO DO SO.
I found your use of PAKHOI to train the Japanese's fleet ungallant.

[kjgokc2007]

Yes Taifun it was your game... you sold India out and put zero new research into GB to buy new troops to support France.

It is a cheese tactic that screws this game up. Germany and Japan have to research because Russia, China and USA can research without worry.

It breaks the game, just my opinion.

I agree on Japan using the empty city to train the Navy and Airforce is broken. I said so. The German's can do the same to train their air force on GB's empty cities.

Italy should not be allowed to leave the Med with anything other than Transports before war and Japan should be limited on where their ships can go as well.

Japan should also take a huge hit with USA if they go to war on the Brits prior to the USA entry. I saw a DOW on SA have next to no effect on USA entry to put Japan at war with the Brits to take Singapore and then on to the Med/Africa while the USA just snoozed.

Same for the Brits if they attack Japan prior to USA entry.

The actual Numbers if you sell all research are Here

Germany - 50 to 536 (486 MMP)
Italy ----- 110 to 334 (224 MMP)
Japan---- 150 to 536 (386 MMP)

GB-------- 125 to 722 (597 MMP)
India----- 100 to 423 (323 MMP)
USA ------- 35 to 545 (510 MMP)
Russia---- 125 to 523 (398 MMP)
China----- 120 to 331 (211 MMP)

[Elessar2]

The strategy is deeply asymmetric, since the Germans can as I said easily keep tabs on enemy builds and keep up with the UK/India, and can still use those units after France is defeated, while all those traded-in MPPs are gone forever. I typically get an extra tank and a mech infantry myself just on general principles. All those juicy Allied units just give the German units more experience even if it delays the fall of France by a turn or two.

[Taifun]

Kenny just think about it:

You didn't loose with Germany because India didn't invest in advance tanks or long range aircraft. (Extreme behavior !?¿ )
You didn't loose against Petedalby because Japan got "an unlucky retreat that cost them a key city on turn 2"...

All the best and try to enjoy the game!

[petedalby]

Personally I think refunding Tech is a perfectly valid tactic for both sides. How many Axis players don't refund Rocket Tech for example?

For many things in this game there is a counter to most ploys. The Italians should get no more than 2 ships out of the Med before the Allies block the exit hexes.

Yes, bombarding Pakhoi is an exploit but I've seen many players do it. It's not a game changer in itself.

If there are specific things that you don't want your opponent to do in a game then list them at the start of any ELO challenge. The Tulun exploit is a case in point. An early Allied attack on Japan is another.

[kjgokc2007]

Nothing Personal Taifun... you are a great player... very skilled.

[BillRunacre]

The Tulun exploit is a case in point.

Hi Pete

Can you explain this one to me please?

I'm always happy to consider ways to close extreme and powerful exploits if it's possible.

[BillRunacre]

Japan should also take a huge hit with USA if they go to war on the Brits prior to the USA entry. I saw a DOW on SA have next to no effect on USA entry to put Japan at war with the Brits to take Singapore and then on to the Med/Africa while the USA just snoozed.

I should be able to do something here, thanks for mentioning this.

[BillRunacre]

With Pakhoi, I presume that Japanese players are deliberately not taking the town, and therefore it can be used to train their Carriers?

A simple, although non-historic, solution to this that doesn't require an engine change would be to have Pakhoi start in Axis hands.

However, there may be drawbacks to this, e.g. if the Japanese Carrier fleet cannot gain experience this way, will it upset overall balance later on?

If so, to what extent and in what way should we assist Japan to restore balance?

Or is it safer to leave things as they are...

[kjgokc2007]

Pakhoi can be used to train the entire Jap fleet using shore bombardment and the port as free Exp.

I think starting it as Axis is a simple solution. But the Japs can always let a Partisan pop up and do the same thing there.

Restricting the amount of experience for attacking an empty hex is probably a better route to go to fix this. The Germans can use empty cities to train their air force the same way.

[Bavre]

The Tulun exploit is a case in point.

Hi Pete

Can you explain this one to me please?

I'm always happy to consider ways to close extreme and powerful exploits if it's possible.

The Tulun exploit is the bombarding of Tulun with the Jap stratbomber in the same turn the Germans start Barbarossa. That way Shukov and friends are stranded in Siberia for some crucial turns.
The houserule to not do that seems so common now that it might as well be part of the standard ELO rules.

[Bavre]

With Pakhoi, I presume that Japanese players are deliberately not taking the town, and therefore it can be used to train their Carriers?

A simple, although non-historic, solution to this that doesn't require an engine change would be to have Pakhoi start in Axis hands.

However, there may be drawbacks to this, e.g. if the Japanese Carrier fleet cannot gain experience this way, will it upset overall balance later on?

If so, to what extent and in what way should we assist Japan to restore balance?

Or is it safer to leave things as they are...

There is a much simpler solution to all those training exploits vs structures:
Just make sure that all settlements, towns, etc have 1 defense (with the ability to do damage) vs naval, carrier, fighter and bomber.
That way training will be slower and cost resources.

But to be honest, I have never seen much balancing problems here, simply because the Allies can do the same.
E.g. RAF fighters can strafe an italian detachment or town in East Africa till they are str 13. A good one is also the HQ training exploit with strat bombers. Say your Patton is a noob with 0 XP and you want to DDay soon. Just assign all 3 american stratbombers to him and bomb some meaningless remote little towns in Bretagne or Norway. Each successful bombing (more damage to the town then the bomber) counts as "won fight" for the HQ XP formula and gives 0.1 XP. That means 3 stratbombers with 2 attacks take 5 turns to max out Patton, with some XP for the bombers themselves as icing on top.

[Platoonist]

A good one is also the HQ training exploit with strat bombers. Say your Patton is a noob with 0 XP and you want to DDay soon. Just assign all 3 american stratbombers to him and bomb some meaningless remote little towns in Bretagne or Norway. Each successful bombing (more damage to the town then the bomber) counts as "won fight" for the HQ XP formula and gives 0.1 XP. That means 3 stratbombers with 2 attacks take 5 turns to max out Patton, with some XP for the bombers themselves as icing on top.

That would to jibe with Eighth Air Force history. In 1942 to gain experience and learn tactics, US bomber raids pretty much stuck to attacking sparsely defended submarine bases and production facilities in German-occupied France rather than Germany itself. Likewise, early US carriers raids went after thinly defended Japanese outposts like Wake and the Marshall Islands to gain experience.

[BillRunacre]

The Tulun exploit is a case in point.

Hi Pete

Can you explain this one to me please?

I'm always happy to consider ways to close extreme and powerful exploits if it's possible.

The Tulun exploit is the bombarding of Tulun with the Jap stratbomber in the same turn the Germans start Barbarossa. That way Shukov and friends are stranded in Siberia for some crucial turns.
The houserule to not do that seems so common now that it might as well be part of the standard ELO rules.

Thanks Bavre, and I think this is an exploit that we can reduce in effectiveness by having some Siberians deploy further west.

[kaigab]

E.g. RAF fighters can strafe an italian detachment or town in East Africa till they are str 13.

Didn't know that. Thought fighters can gain experience simply by strafing an empty town

wouldn't be better to simply remove any exp gain from these tactics ?

[Bavre]

Didn't know that. Thought fighters can gain experience simply by strafing an empty town

They do get XP for both, but more for strafing a unit. In case you're interested in the details, go to advanced options and switch the XP display to numbers. Then you'll see exactely how much you get for what.

On the original topic:
It seems in our current match Taifun is very commited to defend France. I'm very curious how that will turn out...

[kaigab]

Didn't know that. Thought fighters can gain experience simply by strafing an empty town

They do get XP for both, but more for strafing a unit. In case you're interested in the details, go to advanced options and switch the XP display to numbers. Then you'll see exactely how much you get for what.

On the original topic:
It seems in our current match Taifun is very commited to defend France. I'm very curious how that will turn out...

thank you very much!