Old factions rework - public brainstorming :D

[Luzario]

Hello people, I am a long time lurker of this forums since DW1 (mainly used it for modding DW1 and DWU after, and now for DW2 info of-course), but now I am eagerly anticipating my new playthrough of DW2 with the new DLC and I made an account so I can brainstorm with you kind people a bit:

What do you wish or imagine as changes to the starting factions in DW2 to get them up to par with Ikkuro and Dhayut in the new DLC? It is probably already too late and the devs already have all mapped out, but im still interested in any ideas you might have. Just for fun while we wait for new DLC



I was thinking a bit about my all time favorite - Humans:

- peaceful (high attacking war weariness, but low defensive war weariness (can this even be separated?))
- resourceful in strife & adaptive (bonus research and production during wars)
- meddlers in foreign affairs (bonus diplomacy and high culture spread that enrages isolationist cultures and befriends others)
- private economy driven (bonus happiness and reproduction when you have bigger private economy earnings and small public expenses)

Technology wise humans would stay mostly generalist as they are now, as that is their niche, but gameplay wise I think this would make humans play as a defensive war specialist that have small fleets but produce new fast when they are attacked. Difference to Ikkuro would be that humans are a bit paradoxical, because they want peace, but their private sector and politics are meddling in foreign affairs, so they do get in wars and actually benefit from them with research and production. So expanding as humans would mean you need to force the enemy to attack you in order for you to maintain public support and pursue a longer war. And your meddling private sector would actually facilitate that. Attacking wars would have to be short because of high war weariness.

A bit more far out ideas:

- I would combine meddling in foreign affairs with private economy driven by somehow making it so that your private economy builds stuff everywhere and pushes you into (defensive?) wars Or they would give you missions to build free mining bases but in other territories and you choose to build them or not. (these bases would have some bonuses until they are in your territory)

- humans are also already set as adaptive and could have a special, cheap "outpost tech" that would allow them to colonize any planet without colonizing tech (maybe 1 per level of this "outpost tech"). This outpost planet could not build, would be expensive, exert no influence and would be capped at small pop, but it would allow them to "reserve" it for colonizing tech to catch-up. This would also combine with meddling in foreign affairs, as the outpost could find itself in foreign territory and enrage other factions.... sort of like planting flags and staking claims

- special government: Union of States/Colonies (or just Democratic Union or something) - humans like to stay independent as entities (colonies) but join together in a Union for military and common trade. In game this would maybe be similar to Democracy on drugs? with even more attacking war weariness, some sort of independence for different colonies (colonies would look more to what is happening in their immediate area for happiness and less across the whole faction), bonuses for colonies where Leader is born (if that could be set?), special kind of revolt on any big colony that changes faction leader if successful and automatically ends any war that could be ended by player anyway? (anti war protests)



Probably most of these stuff is not even possible, but i still wonder what if What are some of your ideas for this or any other faction?

[Cauldyth]

Actually, I don't think the devs have mapped anything concrete yet. They probably have ideas, but they said they wanted to hear feedback on the Ikkuro and Dhayut first before deciding how to proceed.

Ackdarians are still my favorite faction, especially since DW2 gave them the most beautiful ship set in the game! I'd love to see some unique things for fleet and fighter management for them. Maybe a way of making the flagship of each fleet have some unique properties, or components, that affect the rest of the fleet?

[Luzario]

Actually, I don't think the devs have mapped anything concrete yet. They probably have ideas, but they said they wanted to hear feedback on the Ikkuro and Dhayut first before deciding how to proceed.

Ackdarians are still my favorite faction, especially since DW2 gave them the most beautiful ship set in the game! I'd love to see some unique things for fleet and fighter management for them. Maybe a way of making the flagship of each fleet have some unique properties, or components, that affect the rest of the fleet?

Agreed, they do go tech and most big ships is their win condition if I remember correctly. Maybe they should go into that even more by having a unique huge ship, and maybe also an ability to control their fighters directly, the same as mercantile? gov. has ability to control mining ships....

[Cauldyth]

I like the idea of the Ackdarians having an even larger ship type that others don't get. Call it a Flagship or Dreadnought or Supercarrier or something. Unfortunately, it would require a new ship model, so maybe that's out of scope.

[thegreybetween]

I'm looking forward to the introduction of more neutral creatures - specifically sand slugs/worms - so that the Teekans have their hated foe back in the game. I assume that their "Kill the most Vordikars" victory condition will be remapped to sand slugs, and give them a little more personality. I could see them getting some special Teekan-specific techs that make it easier to deal with/resist the impacts of planetary creatures. I also love the tinkering and reverse-engineering focus in their lore, and I could imagine some very cool ways to reflect this mechanically if they wanted to go that route to differentiate them from other factions.

[Cauldyth]

Hmm, what if the Teekans could learn to build ships from other races' ship sets, by reverse engineering their ships?

[Luzario]

Yeah, maybe Teekans should go all-in on capturing and salvaging ships?

Maybe not boarding bonuses as they are weak, but they could have a special disabeling weapon that could kill enemy crew and make it easy for them to board. Then also more bonuses from scraping ships, or as you 2 said, ability to get other faction ships .... interesting


And using other faction freighters to trade without trade deals?

[thegreybetween]

Don't forget that Teekans are one of the more peaceful races. I'd actually think it a big hit to them if they had to play like pirates and steal everyone else's stuff. There is some interesting food for thought on them learning to reverse-engineer ship designs from other races, but I think this would probably be better reflected in the game by giving them research bonuses to techs that their trade partners (or capture victims) have already researched, or something similar.

[Luzario]

Don't forget that Teekans are one of the more peaceful races. I'd actually think it a big hit to them if they had to play like pirates and steal everyone else's stuff. There is some interesting food for thought on them learning to reverse-engineer ship designs from other races, but I think this would probably be better reflected in the game by giving them research bonuses to techs that their trade partners (or capture victims) have already researched, or something similar.

You are correct. Good point. Teekans should be more "watch, tinker, learn to do similar but in your own way".

Boarding and salvaging would be more appropriate for another (new) race.

I was thinking of a disabling weapon + boarders would be kind of an interesting playstile for coward/weak race, that compensates its love for stealing new ships by using special tech to help them board. But better for a new race...

Edit: although, Teekans could be so peaceful, or find it such a waste, that they rather use disabling and boarding vs destroying?

[iancmtaylor]

- special government: Union of States/Colonies (or just Democratic Union or something) - humans like to stay independent as entities (colonies) but join together in a Union for military and common trade. In game this would maybe be similar to Democracy on drugs? with even more attacking war weariness, some sort of independence for different colonies (colonies would look more to what is happening in their immediate area for happiness and less across the whole faction), bonuses for colonies where Leader is born (if that could be set?), special kind of revolt on any big colony that changes faction leader if successful and automatically ends any war that could be ended by player anyway? (anti war protests)

Should be possible to have a 'Confederacy' Government, with special events that could give colonies an 'Independence Movement' event which would massively increase unhappiness to the point it rebels. If it is a long enough even chain, you could attempt to move armies to the planet to stop them. Actually this sounds really cool and I need to put thins on my todo... Works well with my idea for my story mod too.

Maaaaybe could even have a sort of 'senate' where the different colonies could have good or bad relations with one another and align into power blocs a'la Peloponnese wars? I'm not sure that one- wait I could use buildings as variables in a logic equation... and do actual variables, store values...

*shambles off into the distance muttering to myself*

[Luzario]

- special government: Union of States/Colonies (or just Democratic Union or something) - humans like to stay independent as entities (colonies) but join together in a Union for military and common trade. In game this would maybe be similar to Democracy on drugs? with even more attacking war weariness, some sort of independence for different colonies (colonies would look more to what is happening in their immediate area for happiness and less across the whole faction), bonuses for colonies where Leader is born (if that could be set?), special kind of revolt on any big colony that changes faction leader if successful and automatically ends any war that could be ended by player anyway? (anti war protests)

Should be possible to have a 'Confederacy' Government, with special events that could give colonies an 'Independence Movement' event which would massively increase unhappiness to the point it rebels. If it is a long enough even chain, you could attempt to move armies to the planet to stop them. Actually this sounds really cool and I need to put thins on my todo... Works well with my idea for my story mod too.

Maaaaybe could even have a sort of 'senate' where the different colonies could have good or bad relations with one another and align into power blocs a'la Peloponnese wars? I'm not sure that one- wait I could use buildings as variables in a logic equation... and do actual variables, store values...

*shambles off into the distance muttering to myself*

Yes, although i was thinking more in a way of this special revolt being a feature that changes leader (if its a good leader with bonuses, you dont want to loose him) and stops wars that player himself would not want to stop although the enmy empire would alredy be asking for peace. But this revolt wouldnt loose you a colony, as that is already a normal revolt in game.

[Luzario]

Idea for Mortalen:

They are already the "Klingons" of DW2, but in their race description, they hold grudges and pursue them aggressively.

So, why not give them an ability to "mark" a faction as nemesis. Mortalen ambassadors would have a mission to "declare blood oath" (name pending), that would make Mortalen unable to have any other treaty than "no treaty" or war with that faction (no treaty, because you might need time to prepare).

Having a nemesis faction would boost happiness and military production for Mortalen (even boost more when actually in war with them), but because they are so single minded and focused, they could not change any existing treaties with others, not declare war on others (can defend) and not be able to assign a different nemesis, until the current one is destroyed or beaten sufficiently (it could also expire after a certain time and give boosts or costs depending on the result)

War with nemesis would be able to stop (to not be a complete do or die) but still if nemesis persist, it would have to continue at a later date.

There would also have to be a cooldown between declaring a nemesis to let Mortalen take a bit of a break.

Of course it could also just be a simple attack bonus versus a nemesis faction and that would be that...

[Cauldyth]

Don't forget that Teekans are one of the more peaceful races. I'd actually think it a big hit to them if they had to play like pirates and steal everyone else's stuff. There is some interesting food for thought on them learning to reverse-engineer ship designs from other races, but I think this would probably be better reflected in the game by giving them research bonuses to techs that their trade partners (or capture victims) have already researched, or something similar.

Hmm, then how about if they could purchase blueprints for ship hulls off other races? That combines their tinkering nature with their mercantile nature.

[frankycl]

What do you wish or imagine as changes to the starting factions in DW2 to get them up to par with Ikkuro and Dhayut in the new DLC? It is probably already too late and the devs already have all mapped out, but im still interested in any ideas you might have. Just for fun while we wait for new DLC

Frankly, I don't expect the other ("old") races to change much at all - maybe some minor tweaks and some additional/improved features (like e.g. the better slavery-functions (hopefully) or the auto-repair-bots) that all races can use after release, but if you'd expect much more, I'd guess that you might be disappointed. (just my 2 cents, of course)

But in general it looks like you have many good/interesting ideas for MORE that could be done with the ("old") races... - so, why don't you try to make some mods, where you could realise your thoughts/ideas better ? (and if you don't think you could handle it alone, I'm sure that you could find some buddies to do it together... )

[Luzario]

What do you wish or imagine as changes to the starting factions in DW2 to get them up to par with Ikkuro and Dhayut in the new DLC? It is probably already too late and the devs already have all mapped out, but im still interested in any ideas you might have. Just for fun while we wait for new DLC

Frankly, I don't expect the other ("old") races to change much at all - maybe some minor tweaks and some additional/improved features (like e.g. the better slavery-functions (hopefully) or the auto-repair-bots) that all races can use after release, but if you'd expect much more, I'd guess that you might be disappointed. (just my 2 cents, of course)

But in general it looks like you have many good/interesting ideas for MORE that could be done with the ("old") races... - so, why don't you try to make some mods, where you could realise your thoughts/ideas better ? (and if you don't think you could handle it alone, I'm sure that you could find some buddies to do it together... )

That is a possibility Better to see what DEVs have in store first and maybe we can help them a bit with throwing ideas out there

After that, yeah, it will probably be up to mods. You got any interesting idea willing to share?

[frankycl]

After that, yeah, it will probably be up to mods. You got any interesting idea willing to share?

Ideas I got enough, I think, but often it's something else to know what can be changed how or where (in the files).

But I can tell you what I'm working on myself (actually and planned), if you/others are interested:

- A music-mod, where you can choose/use individual music for each of the races or several different situations in game, like e.g. diplomacy and dialogues or game-events, etc. (it's my heart-project - but sadly it's not easy to do, because music-management is still obfuscated )

- A anhanced flavor-texts and tranlation mod - for all in-game flavor-texts, dialogue, game-events, etc.

- A model-switch mod where I can give specific races (vanilla+DLC) different models of other races - at a whole and with single roles+classes

- A mod that defines planetary suitability, bonuses, garrison-troops, etc. completely new for all races

- A mod that makes research more race-specific / distiguishable for all races (of course only really makes sense with tech-trading off )

... but this all takes much time for a single 100% working slave, like me (and some will need to be adjusted/updated with new changes/DLC, etc. by the DEVs)

EDIT: But this is mainly something for the mod-forum, I guess.

[Luzario]

After that, yeah, it will probably be up to mods. You got any interesting idea willing to share?

Ideas I got enough, I think, but often it's something else to know what can be changed how or where (in the files).

But I can tell you what I'm working on myself (actually and planned), if you/others are interested:

- A music-mod, where you can choose/use individual music for each of the races or several different situations in game, like e.g. diplomacy and dialogues or game-events, etc. (it's my heart-project - but sadly it's not easy to do, because music-management is still obfuscated )

- A anhanced flavor-texts and tranlation mod - for all in-game flavor-texts, dialogue, game-events, etc.

- A model-switch mod where I can give specific races (vanilla+DLC) different models of other races - at a whole and with single roles+classes

- A mod that defines planetary suitability, bonuses, garrison-troops, etc. completely new for all races

- A mod that makes research more race-specific / distiguishable for all races (of course only really makes sense with tech-trading off )

... but this all takes much time for a single 100% working slave, like me (and some will need to be adjusted/updated with new changes/DLC, etc. by the DEVs)

EDIT: But this is mainly something for the mod-forum, I guess.

These are some great broad ideas and i think i know what you are aiming for (beside more visual and audio help also more diverse factions?)

Would be interstimg to hear what some of your ideas to seperate the factions even more would be, as that is something the devs could potentially see and draw inspiration from....


If they read this, i dont know

[frankycl]

These are some great broad ideas and i think i know what you are aiming for (beside more visual and audio help also more diverse factions?)

Yes, I think you got that right - in general it would be the goal to have diverse and unique alien factions and to support this with unique audio and unique dialogue/texts.

Would be interstimg to hear what some of your ideas to seperate the factions even more would be, as that is something the devs could potentially see and draw inspiration from....

I think for the game they got their "inspiration" already - but they could at least de-obfuscate more code, so that more things coold be modded - like e.g. with Harmony.

[thegreybetween]

To be fair, Eric says in the DLC stream that the dev intention is to revisit the original seven factions and enhance their "uniqueness" to bring them more in line with the direction of the new factions (provided it is well received, of which I am very confident). Therefore, this thread is a totally valid and potentially helpful place to discuss our desires for faction differentiation without just saying "make a mod". It is clear that the devs are listening to player feedback, and this thread has a very real potential to influence their official dev direction. It is a conversation worth having, for sure.

Almost all of my eggs are in the Teekan basket, because I haven't had a lot of time to dive into the other factions yet and I just love the crafty little space rats. Given the way that the new factions are differentiated, some potentially relevant Teekan-specific tweaks could include:

Faction Trait: Trademark Infringement ("Copyright? More like 'copy right'.")
When the Teekans have an established trade treaty with another faction, they receive (either a unique research bonus or access to a unique espionage mission) to [certain?] technologies already known by that faction.
[Could possibly be balanced by a natural penalty to diplomacy (or a hit to reputation with each use) due to their reputation as copycats]

Unique Character Trait: Bargain Hunter
Could be available to different character types with specific effects. For example, ambassadors might get a special relationship boost toward forming trade agreements. Spies could have access to intelligence missions to manipulate resource trade deals and/or resource locations. Scientists might have a higher chance of critical research failures AND a higher chance at crash breakthroughs by cutting corners. You could even have a version of it for Admirals and Generals, who use their deal-seeking to lower maintenance costs for their units in systems they don't control (or only in systems they DO control, if that makes more sense).

Faction Building: Trapper's Lodge/Hunting Lodge
General bonus to colony development rate (better hunting of local fauna). Also, upon the introduction to DW2 of planet-bound space creatures (such as the hated Sand Slugs), this building provides special bonuses to destroying/protection from such creatures, given the Teekan cultural focus on hunting them.
[This could be balanced by only being allowed on specific planet types (eg. desert-type planets, etc)]

Anyway, basically just reiterating my thoughts above in a format more consistent with the recent DLC. I have no idea what they will actually do for the Teekans, but I'm looking forward to finding out. Cheers!

[thegreybetween]

Ooh, just thought of another cool faction trait. This could be a good one for a research-focused faction such as Ackdarians, but could apply to a crafty people like the Teekans as well, if it makes more sense.

Faction Trait: No Knowledge Wasted
Whenever this faction suffers a critical research failure ("pursuing the wrong course"), they receive some advancement on a (random? same-category?) lower-tier technology that they haven't yet researched.
[Conceptually, the "wrong path" they were pursing inspired someone else to continue down that path to discover something unexpected and new]