Italian thread

[Cavalry Corp]

My Italian Thread – observations and suggestions
Just finished an excellent Audio book on The Italian Alpine Corps in Russia

Here are the observations as regards the game
It’s a bit of a mixed bag…

The Alpine XXX HQ is commanded by the incorrect commander in the game should be Gabriele Nasci. Matthieu is low grade (as depicted probably) it appears he was not even in Russia. No way would he have been given command of the best Corps in the 8th army.

Considering how well they did I would put Nasci stats as better than Messe ( Messe Mech rating should probably be 1 higher).

Gabriele Nasci
Pol 8
Morale 6
Initiative 5
Admin 5
Mech 1
Inf 6
Air 1

Alpine units seem quite well depicted in the game and are certainly much better than their southern Italian Divisions.
Italian units fought quite well in 41 it seems.
But the Alpine seem not to have had the 75mm AT gun as depicted in the game and authorised to them (clearly mentioned more than once by survivors accounts in the book) though other units may have, they left for Russia only expecting Mountain combat. That said they seem completely unprepared for winter combat at all times.
It would be fair to say, from the accounts given that these and all Italian units (and probably Rumanian and Hungarian) would suffer Blizzard effects even in 42 but with less bad effect (than winter 41) and in Towns and level 2+ forts, maybe none. But in the open full effects.
Italian national Morale at least earlier should be a bit better. It collapsed after Jan 43, mostly due to the retreat from the Don (and being abandoned by the Germans). Not before.
I would have it as
June 41 = 55
Dec 41 = 50
Jan 43 = 45
Sept 43 = 40
Italian units should probably disband Feb 43 onwards.
Italian units destroyed probably should not be rebuilt.

These are my comments on this thread – intended to help the game.

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[Cavalry Corp]

Matthieu - seems to have been a back waters boy in Sardinia.

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[Zebtucker12]

Nice thread!
And yeah never got the logic behinde italian NM being 40 its so strange.

[Cavalry Corp]

Tks,the main thing to start is to get the Alpini HQ changed to the correct commander. They did not respond but it seem to be a matter of fact, hope they change it as the Alpini Corps HQ is a waste of space as is.

My NM suggestion is a response to real events as the game likes to set (specifically for Italy) . Though the whole concept of NM is flawed and should be on losses and or actual events and not specific dates.

Note I make negatives as well a positives for them.

[ShaggyHiK]

Any change in the rating is a rather subjective process. It must also be understood that the game to some extent gives the player the freedom to decide "What if Rommel had not gone to Africa?"
Who can say with complete certainty that he would have been just as good on the battlefields of the eastern front?
Commander skills are actually as subjective as possible.

No matter how anyone would like, the Soviet generals won that war, but for some reason they have very low ratings, with the exception of 5-6 people on the list of USSR generals who are only slightly worse than the alternative from German surnames.

And to determine the skills of a commander in real life? Are there criteria?

How to transfer these skills into the game by combining the conventions of the game?
What if this, what if this?

As for the Italians, there is some suspicion that this can hit the German player very hard in 42-43. The complete loss of divisions in the German army is not recoverable, the Soviet Union, in the event of the loss of any division, can build a new one for AP points, unlike Germany.

[Denniss]

The Alpini Corps starts without leader so it gets one auto-assigned upon arival, I'll simply change it to have the correct leader.

[Cavalry Corp]

Ok nice - I did wonder if something was automatic (and a big problem because of the AP issue). I was only suggesting my ideas after listening to the whole book, as I thought the Alpini leader Gabriele Nasci was missing from the whole game . TBH I did not look as they have so high AP to replace its not worth it.


I would put forward that the random generator makes the same issue for the SS Panzer Corps that has Steiner( in my game) - when really it should be Hausser as it arrives?

[Denniss]

If you find issues with arriving HQ leaders in GC41 please post them and I'll have a look at what I can do.
Assigning leaders only works if they are not bound otherwise.
Please also report issues with leaders if they, like Steiner, are available far too early due to matching rank but not having a higher command. Both rank and actual use in higher command should be the criteria for start date.

[Cavalry Corp]

Ok sure - these were things I mainly came upon by accident but I am glad it all helps toward the perfect simulation Thanks. The big issue is that some of these random leaders have very bad AP to remove them as you know.

[Wiedrock]

I am more concerned about missing 99% of the seized/produced equipment after 09/1943 and not having any Italian Unit/AG fighting after that date ...ok there is one Italian SS Division.

[Denniss]

All italian units are removed or disabled during the 9/43 surrender, currently no drect way around it. In Randy's scenarios like StoB I believe he models italian units using Axis generic nation and Italian OB.
For Sicily and 9/43 I already have some ideas how to get italian units to disband instead of removal but this will need tome to test.
I tagged units historically lost in Sicily with one tag and units known to be disarmed by germans with another tag, the corresponding events get a command to disband the those tagged units
The Sicily-tagged units will possibly be split into two tags so coastal Divs/Bdes are removed but the other units disbanded

If that works as intended this may be something to use for other TBs like force-transfer some locked units from FIN to NO upon Finnish surrender, disband some higher HQ units upon surrender in Afrika and at the end of italian theatre.

[Cavalry Corp]

I read that most Italian units were -

a. returned to Italy after the Don retreat say Feb 43 most disbanded as they were basically destroyed by fighting and winter attrition.
b. destroyed in the Don battles 100%

I think that its suggested in my book there were no Italian units to speak of in Russia probably from March 43 IRL - But I thought in the game (without a Don / Stalingrad situation) that was modeled as a slow withdrawal with all out by Sept 43 except the hardcore Fascist units, that probably mostly stayed in N Italy anyway. I don't think in the manual it says it happens on a specific date.

In my game...as Italian units are mainly of low worth against late 42 Russians (with a few exceptions) - I have tried disbanding two motorised Divs in Sept 42 - to as it were try and seize their 2000 trucks.