[1.21b-] Fog of War not displayed properly

[BlueTemplar]

How it is displayed :

ShadowEmpire_ZWMSx4QxZy.jpg (228.32 KiB) Viewed 927 times

How it should be displayed :

ShadowEmpire_ZWMSx4QxZy_v2.jpg (300.32 KiB) Viewed 927 times

As a reminder :

SumatraPDF_s4HRqgpjaF.jpg (125.03 KiB) Viewed 927 times

SumatraPDF_oaJQlCLbeI.jpg (82.85 KiB) Viewed 927 times

The Hex details should also probably show Effective Recon instead of Recon,

EffRec
-20

and the popup help text could be better too, for instance it could be instead :

Your Recon Points : 10
Landscape Hide Points : 30
Effective Recon Points : 10 - 30 = -20
(1+ to spot Units / 40+ for details / 400+ for exact information.)
Your ZoC Points : 0

P.S.: The underground water Ruins in my territory have only -8 Effective Recon, but I guess shouldn't be covered by FoW (like in the edited picture) because no unknown unit can be on that hex without taking it ?
P.P.S.: The two Ruins next to that one *should* display FoW (like it's in the edited picture) because AFAIK it's still possible for enemy units to hide in hexes bordering the underground water ruins without taking control of that hex, as long as that player has less than 4 ZoC Points on that hex ?

[Vic]

Thats actually a really good point. How could I have overlooked that?

[BlueTemplar]

"Too familiar with the game" syndrome ?

----

Also, while we're at it, how about a small balance for consistency change :
from currently :
(1+ to spot Units / 40+ for details / 400+ for exact information.)
changed to :
(1+ to spot Units / 41+ for details / 401+ for exact information.)
??
(Or are there any important thresholds that this would upset ??)

----

[...]
P.S.: The underground water Ruins in my territory have only -8 Effective Recon, but I guess shouldn't be covered by FoW (like in the edited picture) because no unknown unit can be on that hex without taking it ?
[...]

After reading

Changelist for Core 1.20c (#161)
[...]
-Fixed an issue with other Regime’s rebels going to peace with you every round. When declaring war on Rebels now you’ll also have to also declare war on their Major Regime. Unless their Major Regime is already out of the game.
[...]

I am now uncertain about whether rebels actually count as part of your territory... and so I am not sure any more whether hexes in your territory should get an exemption from my suggested "Effective" Fog of War ??
(Also while it's somewhat more clear on my screenshot because I am using a mod to add icons on terrain, especially with vanilla graphics it might be more interesting to still show it because it would show in advance the gaps you would have in your recon if your territory got taken ?)

[BlueTemplar]

There's also the question of whether Units should be treated differently from Assets...

I can see how the very stable Hex Perk Assets might be able to hide at first, but shouldn't vanish just because after I saw them they became covered by the Fog of War again. (Which is maybe desirable for units, lest you end up with tons of ghost copies of the same unit if it repeatedly pops in and out of the FoW in different locations ?)

Less stable assets like Free Folk settlements or enemy player assets... probably not vanish either ?
Related :
[1.20f]Assets revealed by Recon Flights Vanish
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8&t=394120

(Consider how RTS are typically doing it : even though enemy buildings can be destroyed (sometimes even by a 3rd party !), they are still shown in te fog of war, even it revealing that location again later you realize they are gone !)

Still, IMHO I shouldn't be able to see the Free Folk settlement of Lime *before* I got enough recon on it to counter-balance the hiding effect of the forest.

[BlueTemplar]

Oh wow, that's was a FAST fix ! (like 3 and half hours ?!)
But why isn't it listed in the v1.21c changelog ??

v1.21c, started 1.21b :

ShadowEmpire_8pY3ugltKG_v2.jpg (372.77 KiB) Viewed 878 times

But now I am curious about these 3 Plains Grassy hexes with supposedly Recon 1 but no Hide Points that are now displayed as covered by the FoW...
(Also the tooltip hasn't been updated, at least not yet.)

After moving some units :

ShadowEmpire_tI0FuOeah7_v2.jpg (115.72 KiB) Viewed 878 times

ShadowEmpire_hXoVAbtZ8P_v2.jpg (121.33 KiB) Viewed 878 times

So is there also (now, or was it always there ??) some kind of Line of Sight system, that also seems to be affected by the ownership of the nearby hexes ??
Having ownership and 16 Recon (and 6 ZoCp ??) on the Canian Wilds hex wasn't enough to see further, but having ownership, 20 Recon (and 12 ZoCp ??) - was, despite Hide Points of Forests being 30.
(Also, there's an enemy unit on Lime, in case some people missed the implication.)

[BlueTemplar]

On a new game :
v1.21c, started 1.21c :

ShadowEmpire_kZX95Mgjt4_v2.jpg (383.29 KiB) Viewed 877 times

The Base Sea at bottom left with 2 Recon is revealed, while the Plains Grassy with 2 Recon at the top right isn't.
Is it because the Recon from the city has Line of Sight on the Base Sea, but not Plains Grassy ?
- is *that* because the Low Mountains Snow up right to the city are blocking LoS from the city Units, but the Ruins north from Meslin aren't ?
- and/or because the Base Sea is lower elevation than the Units in the city, but Plains Grassy is higher elevation ?
But then players have no way to check elevation (after the Planet generation phase) ..?

ShadowEmpire_rFLfZ8CXoc_v2.jpg (181.66 KiB) Viewed 877 times

I'll note here that the Low and High Mountains, despite having 30 and 50 Hide Points, are immediately captured, which reveals that there are no enemy units hidden there, which might go against the intention in the section of the manual below ??

5.10.14.5. ZOC
Moving into a Hex that was occupied by the enemy at the start of turn
costs you 10 extra AP. Moving into a Hex adjacent to an enemy Unit costs
10 extra AP. If doing so while crossing a River, it costs 20 extra AP instead
of 10.
ZOC points of Units you do not see do not give rise to extra movement cost.
This is done to not give their presence away.
Units that are out of supply exert no ZOC.

(emphasis mine)

ShadowEmpire_yjNMbLRPQ0_v2.jpg (187.58 KiB) Viewed 877 times

[BlueTemplar]

Some extra thoughts :
1.) I now realize that units might have some extra requirements in addition to diminishing recon to be able to see further than 1 hex ? (Seems to be pretty easy to see into Sea..?)
2.) Recon points displayed on the bottom right seem to be "sticky" during a single turn ??
3.) There's also a condition of I guess at least 1 Recon (?) to un-black unknown territory.
4.) There might be a first turn recon bonus around your starting SHQ/Capital extending 3 hexes out - to simulate the ancestral knowledge of your Faction of their nearby environment, where they are supposed to have lived for hundreds of years ?

[Vic]

There was still a remnant 4 recon points rule in place. I am reducing this to 2 and showing it in the mouse over calculations. Thanks for continuing to check up on these changes.

[BlueTemplar]

Thanks, will check up on those changes when I can !

Just to be clear, my later comments were more about me trying to figure out how the system actually worked than an *actual* bug report - consider them more of a "confusion" report.