General Observations

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu May 18, 2000 4:53 am

Wow, what a game. I've played SP1 and SP3 and this blows me away.

My first WWII campaign battle was EF 9/39 against the Poles. I had learned pretty much what the Poles would throw up against me from before, but was I to be surprised. The 19 man squads were a surprise, and I don't know if I recall any Polish artillery from earlier SP's being chosen. Anyway, I had five objectives to defend from an assault. I chose no artillery, myself. The front line was basically three objective clusters strewn across. Though I knew there might be airborne troops I decided to chance ignoring the rear; it turned out a good move.

Though I occassionally had moderate lost battles in previous SP's I don't know if I ever experienced the ferocity from other nations that the Poles gave me here; they were relentless. It was great fun to try to sneak around a sniper or two and try not to be observed. All three front objective areas were roughly attacked simultaneously and one area was very weak (two lousy PZII's and some infantry). About the time I thought one area was pretty secure, so that I might scrape together two or three armored units to send to the weakest area, I would then start wondering if I actually should have written off the weakest area with the hopes of attacking in force once the other two areas were greatly secure to retake it. It was on the edge of my seat every step of the way. As much as a gas as this battle was, I still ended up with the highest victory level. Then came the 10/39 battle....

This time, I was to advance. Never before did I know that the Poles had something of the equivalent of the German 88mm flak, but oh I learned. Two PZIVC's went up in flames. Again, other than intrinsic mortars for the infantry, I had no artillery, other than a couple of 88mm flaks I upgraded to. Since I didn't know of the existence of such Polish guns, I decided to replay the turn and proceed accordingly. I'm not through the battle yet, but it's quite interesting to try to bombard the one position where I know of the 76mm, and still know there's another left unspotted. My 88's got the customary return fire from all guns/artillery of range, including the 76mm's. Also, the known 76mm position fades the unit in and out, so that direct fire is precarious.

Another thing I tried in this battle, being on the offensive and all, was to march, slowly, a platoon of special forces to the enemy rear. One thing that's helpful about this, is that they can often spot some of the mines in advance, and it's always fun to try and sneak around with your infantry very slowly. BTW, are special forces capable of any sort of stealth compared to regular infantry? Funny thing, when my special forces were spotted, threatening an objective cluster, it seemed as if half the Polish army that was entrenched and in very many cases unspotted, suddenly left their positions and sort of went mad. Some advanced a miniscule amount, while others, particularly in the special forces area, either advanced toward the rear or went headlong after the special forces.

A few things here. I love all the sound, the rifle fire is particularly awesome, as it really makes me feel as though the mere sound of it will rankle the enemy. Also, there is a prolonged tract after a speedy bombardment phase, which sounds as though still more is going on, which is just excellent.

I must say guys, I'm very encouraged as a grognard, when I see the free download has advertising on it. Sound strange? Well, firstly, if I have to see advertisng, let it be grognard variety, not some pukey D&D game. Secondly, it's encouraging, because i remember how SSI used to be, and the list you guys are starting out with, is putting their empire to shame, should you accomplish it. I see another advertisement for your games and I think, "There's hope for wargaming, maybe someone really does still want to do this right."

One last thing. The "Revenge For Versailles" would be great for a pre-WWII start. Also, though it may be impossible, I would like to see it as strategic, as indeed it probably is, but to also have the option of fighting one hex of battle tactically, so as to effect the outcome for the hex. How neat would it be to finally attack that cut off division, and find their tanks had ran out of fuel, and ammunition down to a minimum?

I've only just started SPWAW, and considering the surprise of the Polish 76mm, I just don't know what I'll do when I come up against some forces which will use airborne troops, or worse yet, what will fighting partisans be like?

Thanks Matrix!!!

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu May 18, 2000 6:36 am

Very nice letter, Charles

Thank you so much. That is a great encouragement to us.

There is a kind of sneak move in the game that was not there before. By moving cautiously and slowly you can see things that a squad on the run would not.

It allows you to also seek up on a tank. You could never do that before, unless the tank was suppressed. You can now.

Bunkers and fortifications are tougher...much tougher, as they should be.

And on we could go, but yes, in addition to the great graphics and sounds, there is method to our madness and a new touch of realism that SP never had before.

Thanks for your good letter. Enjoy...Wild Bill

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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu May 18, 2000 5:13 pm

I also love the longer turns. In previous SP's there was little time to develope any sneaking, and sometimes the battles were so short that it almost didn't allow flanking, or at least no flanking of a more stealthy type. Also, I'm sure encouraged that y'all are thinking of taking in larger maps, because since the tanks have greater range in hexes than SP3, the clearance between hills needs to be tweaked as further apart. I haven't fought enough in SPWAW to know if I actually prefer SP3's tank hex range to hill clearance, altogether, or if it's just that I'm used to the old system. In any case, I think you know where I'm coming from, it was somewhat of a shock to see a map that looked to have the same clearance between hills as in SP3, but when the short barrel tanks such as the PZII, are pretty close to reaching between hills, whereas they weren't before, it sort of throws you off (by between hills, I mean the first main hill in advancing as compared to the enemy's main hill (usually the largest and most central hill for the enemy, often laden with an objective cluster).

BTW, my first battle against the Poles was done with a visibility of six, so that might had made them considerably more difficult. If I had any 88mm's too, that might have helped, but you know how it is, you want to have as many units as possible, so you figure in fighting the Poles you can afford the reduced price of 20mm AA's in return for more points to put into extra units (upgrade those 20mm to 88mm later).

One last thing, I think I would have preferred the SP3 unit scale to the SP1 scale we see here. Why? Well, it seemed when running an initial campaign, that I didn't have to go with so many cheap untis to start with, in order to have a larger force. But the main reason, is that with each unit actually being five tanks in SP3, the units would last much longer. You lose a tank and it's still a unit you can play with, lose one in SPWAW and it's no more. On the other hand, at least at the '39 level, it can be quite entertaining to see a tank when shot at by comparable AT guns, may often get hit several times before it blows up. Perhaps with this difference over SP1's unit treatment, it's the best way to go, but I thought I'd at least make it clear that there could be great advantages to having every unit comprised of more individual tanks.

Thanks

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu May 18, 2000 6:26 pm

Both systems have distinct advantages. We had to choose one.

I think as you continue to play SPWAW you will find that tank kills do not come as easily as before.

Many factors contribute to this, improved armor algorythyms, penalty for moving and firing, etc.

They happen, but it is not quite so easy. A tank generally has a longer life in SPWAW, unless you are pitting a Stuart against a Tiger...and even that might surprise you! The speed and size of the Stuart have been taken into account more than before.

Even a Tiger might have a more difficult time trying to croak a scurrying little Stuart....WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu May 18, 2000 8:33 pm

Was that the 76MM AT gun based on the Zis-3? They aren't supposed to have that in 39...(if at all...) Which weapon exactly seemed overpowered? Though an early MkIV is not exactly well armored, and such a gun is not required to take one out...

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu May 18, 2000 9:07 pm

Hey can I rave about Matrix a little bit here, since its a general observation thread?

I am absolutely wowed by the customization that I can apply to the game. The mob files and editor are a super feature. I understand that any simulation, game, model, etc. involve tradeoffs. Here you've given me the ability to override the game designers with my own values as to what I think. I hope Matrix keeps this kind of approach in the future.

Also I want to thank you for your tremendous openness in this forum. I've haunted the USENET game forums for years and never read such candor about the game internals and development decisions.

The only thing that I am worried about is that if we all quit our jobs to play SPWAW 24x7, we won't have any $ to buy your future games and you would go under.

Thank you again.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu May 18, 2000 9:18 pm

Paul: I believe it was a zis-3, though I don't have the game in front of me at the moment. I have short names for things, so that for such a minor force as the Poles, the shock of a large flak gun is enough to just catch the type and mm size.

I wasn't saying that that PZIVC getting knocked out was any surprise, but the difference between getting knocked out by a 37mm Polish AT, and a 76mm flak, is quite profound. It's about the equivalent of my expecting to get slapped around a few times, with MANY missed shots, before you go down, and being knocked out on the first punch, (and what a punch). BTW, it seemed as though the 76mm had the typical, what I take to be 75-79mm boom sound on firing, however, and I really like this, the 88mm has more of a whoosh to it.

I don't know of the availability, but thinking from the German mindset, I was interested in my colossal opponent in the USSR, in looking into their AA units. Though I don't believe I'd seen one in the earlier SP's, it would appear as though they have an 85mm flak. BTW, as I recall, the Polish one had to be a flak, because the picture provided was one of the German 88mm. Though I haven't looked, I now also wonder what the French may have, and if it will be available in '40.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Thu May 18, 2000 9:19 pm

He probably means the 75mm wz.36, which I ran into. Ouch!

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu May 18, 2000 10:24 pm

Originally posted by Seth:
He probably means the 75mm wz.36, which I ran into. Ouch!

This flak thing interested me, and decided to take the peek at the flak guns. Some of this should probably go to bug thread but maybe it'll be read from here.

The abovementioned polish flakgun has FC:10 and Rf:8, same values as the german 88. so it's not surprising it kills tanks too. After browsing thru the bigger nation's oobs these values seem to be the highest. This polish gun is not familiar to me but was it really as good as the german one? Maybe.

Now the bug part. French have 20, 25 and 75mm DCA flak guns and they all have zero FC and Rf. In free france oob they have higher values.

Voriax

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu May 18, 2000 10:32 pm

Seth: You are 100% correct.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu May 18, 2000 10:37 pm

Voriax: I wasn't saying that it was as good as the 88mm German flak, what I was saying, in essence, is that I had no such fears of anything, comparable to the German 88 coming from the Poles. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that in accuracy and range, it's probably more closely resembling the German 75L48. Anything in accuracy and punch resembling the 75L48 in '39, or even '41 for that matter, other than the German 88, is a pretty big surprise.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu May 18, 2000 11:14 pm

I got you, it would've been a surprise to me also

didn't the SPcamo team remove heavy AA-guns from spww2 because they were 'too big' and useless against strafers. And they have a good point there. For example, even though Finland had 88mm flak guns (one is as memorial in my home town, btw) they would be in totally wrong place in the front lines. Those guns and their radar direction gear was reserved for protecting the capital and few other important targets.

Voriax

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri May 19, 2000 12:31 am

I'm not in the know about SP2WW2. As any of the SP series has played, if you consider the units closest to the enemy as the front, you'd be foolish to put the 88 on the front anyway.

I've devised, as I'm sure many have, a certain meticulous care over the SP series for my 88's. Perhaps to describe this a little better, I will take in the problem of airpower knocking out so much of my tanks. Let's say I have a King Tiger. What's the point in putting it on a hill, dug in, when the opposing airpower is VERY likely to destroy it? I had the problem of leaving the tank silent, to wait for the exact moment when those six or so shots could find the best opportunity, because once it was spotted you could forget it surviving to fight anymore, by taking the attitude that it was better off fighting and dug-in, than moved, losing the dig-in (Isn't it great that tanks can move and re-dig-in in SPWAW?) I must say, BTW, I'm very encouraged to see REAL mm designations for all armor, as I found it a bit lame for King Tigers to dissolve almost as easily as PZIII's under bombardments or air strikes. I'm almost willing to believe that the 88 flak will draw more fire than the KT, but that perhaps air strikes are less common to the 88 flak (perhaps because it can directly counter the airstrike). The lengthier turns in SPWAW, also allows super-tanks/guns to be a larger factor. For example, if we had a five turn battle and the KT fired the first turn, it would spend the second turn relocating to avoid the inevitable air strike, and considering ground opposition, it could take more work than that to relocate. The more turns you have possible in a battle, the more chances such hit-and-run tactics allow actual fire from the unit. Unfortunately, for me, I never payed attention to the '*' spotted asterisk in earlier SP series, as I never knew what it meant. I only knew I was spotted after I fired, moved, or was airstriked or bombarded.

The 88's in order to survive, and this is much easier in SPWAW, btw, need heavy transport, and the transport should be stationed either in the hex with the gun, or very close by. I haven't figured out quite which is best in SPWAW yet. In the SP series I would put the transport at least three hexes away, so to insure that the bombardments meant for the guns didn't hit the transport. Face an enemy with artillery, leave the guns in their deployed spot, and you might as well kiss the guns goodbye.

BTW, HUGE question here, is the '*' spotting designation an indicator of being likely spotted, at least given the enemy positions that have been spotted, or is it a definite statement that it's been spotted? For realism's sake it would seem it should only be a likely indicator and not definite.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Fri May 19, 2000 1:12 am

Right now teh "spotting indicator" is definate. I always called it "spidey sense" in SP3:-)

given the effect I think its backwards, it should come on if YOU spot the ENEMY, not the other way round...ie you will slow down nd move cautiously if you have spotted tehenemy, but if he is lying in wait in ambush and you go down the rod whistling merrily, unlees you have ole' spidy on the point...you won't know your supposed to have been careful until the shooting starts...

In SP2 the top bar would flash red when you entered an enemy LOS - now THAT was "spidey sense"

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Fri May 19, 2000 1:42 am

Thanks Larry! While we do have our "secrets" we want folks to understand the design philosophy behind what we do.

SP:WaW is a "special case" in many ways becasue we want (need!) the support of the SP community to help develop the game (and work on our other gmaes) David keeps telling me to "get to work" on the the new Typhoon game...so I havebeen trying to get as much info out before I have to go back down in my hole and work

But we intend to have comprehensive editors for units (maps may not be appropriate at the operational/strategic level)and offer exposure into the combat system. The thing that bugs me mst about a game is a combat system I can't understand, let alone tweak if I don't agree with!

Dave R · Post by **Dave R** » Fri May 19, 2000 2:15 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax:

I got you, it would've been a surprise to me also didn't the SPcamo team remove heavy AA-guns from spww2 because they were 'too big' and useless against strafers.

Just to confirm this point. For game purposes they'd SP Camo turned the 88 into a pure AT gun. Justifying it by saying that the gun needed a different set up for the AA role to AT role, and the time needed to swap rolls was outside the scope of the game. I wasn't sure of hos sound their info was, but it did feel right to me.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri May 19, 2000 5:00 pm

From the 1 1/2 battles I've fought to date in SPWAW I believe I've noticed a mine activation trigger, which as far as I can tell is different from SP3. I'm not wanting to give away what I see occurring so far, partially because I haven't seen enough action to be conclusive, and also because it's probably more fun for gamers to 'learn' how the mines are behaving. Do the mines actually have an activation mechanism now, istead of always having a chance to blow up what goes through the hex?

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Mon May 22, 2000 5:19 pm

Though I HAVE NOW seen the subject of mines very clearly laid out in (not whether there's an activation trigger or not) the SP3 manual, with this discovery I thought I'd let those unaware, know that engineers can actually CREATE mines, that is apart from the ones you may buy in support. This was so revolutionary to my two platoon engineers in core, that I decided to start my campaign all over.

I recall my earlier camapign, when the enemy was on the assault on how he attacked all my objecive clusters simultaneously, when the visibility was down to six. Now, in the new campaign I laid out one area with an SS rifle platoon, accompanied by an engineer one. It was PERFECT, absolutely perfect. There was a small valley between that hill and another which had stronger forces on it. I bought no mines in support and with this area I had the engineers laying out mines, both in front of the objective cluster on the hill, and also in the valley; absolutely perfect, and guess what? The enemy didn't even make a slight attempt to take that area! He went instead for the other two frontline clusters. Looks like our AI has variety guys. It seems as though the engineeers either lay mines better when in defense mode, or only in that mode (one has to make sure and click on the engineer mine duty dialog within each engineer unit).

Next battle, 10/39, witnessed basically no front line for the enemy, as opposed to previous battles (along the deployment lines). I've been very deep into enemy territory and encountered trivial resistance, strangely enough mostly mortars (once my scouts sniffed them out).

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Mon May 22, 2000 7:51 pm

Originally posted by Charles22:
.. snip ..
Next battle, 10/39, witnessed basically no front line for the enemy, as opposed to previous battles (along the deployment lines). I've been very deep into enemy territory and encountered trivial resistance, strangely enough mostly mortars (once my scouts sniffed them out).

That's something I already observed years back with "Steel Panthers" (DOS) - the AI is overly fond of mortars, especially light ones.

I for myself found those mostly useless

Arralen