New Game?

[Nikel]

Hi. A little typo in the screenshot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_XV_Apollinaris

[mercenarius]

Thanks! I'll correct that.

[mercenarius]

Here is a screenshot with a correction for the mispelling of "Apollinaris":

Legio (Limitanei).png (623.91 KiB) Viewed 1689 times

As some will notice in this screenshot, I have changed the Diocletian legions themselves to unary, meaning you cannot "split" the legion itself down into cohorts. This is to allow easier brigading with other legions or cohorts of legionary infantry, regardless of their grade (Palatini, Comitatenses, or Limitanei). I'll post a screenshot of this over the weekend. It's not all that exciting, to be sure. But I did make this change and I wanted to point it out because the previous screenshot is now obsolete, and not only because of the typo.

P.S. In the initial release of Victory & Glory: The American Civil War, I misspelled Nathan Bedford Forrest's name as "Forest" and I got taken to task about that.

[Nikel]

Thanks Mercenarius.


May we see a graphic of the Huns messing around?


The grade "scholares" is present in your game? I guess the pseudocomitatenses is not needed because they were limitanei.

[lwarmonger]

Thanks Mercenarius.


May we see a graphic of the Huns messing around?


The grade "scholares" is present in your game? I guess the pseudocomitatenses is not needed because they were limitanei.

Those numbers seem extremely high, especially given the ease with which barbarian tribes ended up moving through the provinces to establish themselves.

More likely they are "MTOE" strength, with real strength far below reality.

It is worth remembering that in 395 many of the field units from the East were actually with Stilicho, and only returned later... and it is also worth remembering that from 420 and beyond, it seems like the army in the West often scarcely existed at all.

[mercenarius]

Those numbers seem extremely high, especially given the ease with which barbarian tribes ended up moving through the provinces to establish themselves.

More likely they are "MTOE" strength, with real strength far below reality.

This is a good point. Some if it depends on how numerous and tough the barbarian tribes actually were. If we take what Julius Caesar reported many centuries before as a baseline, these different (but not entirely dissimilar) tribes in 395 could have been rather strong in numbers. Still, what you have expressed here is a thought that I have had myself. A.H.M. Jones expresses the view that the Germanic Tribes were NOT particularly large. I am not so sure that I agree, however. I haven't completely made up my mind, even after all of this time!

For what it is worth, my first pass through the Notitia Dignitatum as regards the Eastern half of the empire gives a paper strength of just about 250,000. That doesn't include the freshwater or saltwater navies which are both pretty small, especially in the east. I haven't adjusted these strengths- yet - for losses at the Frigidus.

It is worth remembering that in 395 many of the field units from the East were actually with Stilicho, and only returned later... and it is also worth remembering that from 420 and beyond, it seems like the army in the West often scarcely existed at all.

Again, good points. I think that the losses to the Western Field army were significant, and it's possible that some surviving units were dismissed by Theodosius, if those units had been raised by Arbogast/Eugenius.

Jones makes the point that Theodosius only took a portion of the eastern field army with him when he confronted Arbogast. I can't find the reference right at the moment, however.

[mercenarius]

May we see a graphic of the Huns messing around?

The grade "scholares" is present in your game? I guess the pseudocomitatenses is not needed because they were limitanei.

The Scholares are in the game as an elite cavalry unit:

Scholae_Palatinae.png (623.26 KiB) Viewed 1610 times

Yes, you are correct, the Pseudocomitatenses are not going to be a separate grade in the game. You "upgrade" a Limitanei unit by moving it into a field army just in the normal course of game play. Similarly, a Limitanei unit in a fortress or city is just a regular old border unit.

I'll try to have some screenshots of action with the Huns sometime next month!

[lwarmonger]

I've read a fair amount off and on about the fall of the Roman Empire, and made a living figuring out how organizations do and dont function. Personally, I think the most plausible book out there is by Adrian Goldsworthy "How Rome Fell".

In it, he emphasizes the near constant state of civil war and internal instability, and the likely knockoff effects on Roman State in general and the Roman Army in particular, something far too few historians seem to account for.

If you havent given that one a read I'd encourage you to do so.

[lwarmonger]

Something else that people frequently underestimate is just how extreme the difference between MTOE strength and actual combat power can be on the battlefield. Russia is the most frequently cited modern example of this, however I'm personally more familiar with U.S. allies and partners, so I'll use one of them with few perceived genuine security threats as an example. Thailand.

An average Thai division can be counted on to have the following strengths (definitions are my own):

MTOE (how many the book says they are supposed to have): 10800
Paper(how many they actually have): Between 9000 and 10000
Real (how many soldiers they can physically assemble under command of the division at one time): Between 2000 and 3000 (this is optimistic)
Combat Ready (how many soldiers are actually considered "ready" to fight a peer enemy at any given time by Royal Thai Army standards): MAYBE 100 (one company)

What causes the difference between paper strength and the actual number of soldiers a formation can actually put into the field? Well in militaries with a clear purpose and limited corruption, it is usually leaves, injuries, Permanent Change of Stations, soldiers on various semi-permanent details to elsewhere, schools (professional military education) etc... and that will account for about 10-15% of your force strength (when push comes to shove and it needs to go to war). So to get a unit to near full strength it needs to be plussed up to 105% of MTOE... which still won't get it to 100% manning, but will get pretty close.

For a country where the military isn't facing a clear threat and corruption is rampant, you have that "normal" reduction as seen above, and in addition to that you have fake soldiers (pay or benefits are being drawn by a unit but no soldier actually exists), soldiers working in military owned farms or businesses, soldiers being servants for officers and their families, etc... the "details" that have nothing to do with being a soldier and everything to do with enriching those who have power in the system increase exponentially, and result in a fighting unit that is a small fraction of the people the government is paying for. When the "paper" strength is less (like it was with Russia, where units were manned at 70%) this can mean that even for armies that fight wars and have real purpose you can get whole brigades only being able to field a battalion of combat power at a time.

This is how you can get a truly massive army by MTOE that is also a large army on paper that, when it is finally put to the test, struggles to field more than a small fraction of its strength to fight. People often assume that "small fraction" means around 50% at worst, but in reality it is more like 10-30%, with 30% being your best case scenario. It seems like this situation describes the late Roman Empire quite well, except with the added chaos of more or less constant civil war and the knock off effects of that (internal disruption, purges, and the need to enrich officers to make them loyal thus adding to the incentive for corruption) added on to make a bad situation even worse.

[erichswafford]

This really looks like it will be the definitive wargame on the subject. Can't wait!

[Nikel]

May we see a graphic of the Huns messing around?

The grade "scholares" is present in your game? I guess the pseudocomitatenses is not needed because they were limitanei.

The Scholares are in the game as an elite cavalry unit:


Scholae_Palatinae.png


Yes, you are correct, the Pseudocomitatenses are not going to be a separate grade in the game. You "upgrade" a Limitanei unit by moving it into a field army just in the normal course of game play. Similarly, a Limitanei unit in a fortress or city is just a regular old border unit.

I'll try to have some screenshots of action with the Huns sometime next month!

Great, thanks


Regarding strengths the graphics come from the wikipedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_army


I read there that there are a low count and a high count troops numbers, whichever is chosen, the most important issue, I think, is balance among factions and vs the assorted barbarians.

[mercenarius]

Well, it's the 4th of August so I think that it's safe to say that I won't be posting any screenshots at the end of July.

I found that I needed to revise my economic model a little bit and that also led me into some issues dealing with religion in the game. I'll try to have some screenshots of the Huns in action not this weekend but the weekend after that. That is the next item on my plate.

[ojnab_bob]

Thanks James! Having just returned from an Italy trip, I can't wait for the release!

[mercenarius]

Thanks James! Having just returned from an Italy trip, I can't wait for the release!

I hope that your trip went well!

I don't have screenshots of the depredations of the Huns just yet, but that is now on my plate. I did do a little art work this week (to relax), and I can post that. Here is the icon for Constantinople after it becomes what the game calls an Imperial City:

Byzantine Imperial City Report Icon.png (80.81 KiB) Viewed 1294 times

And here is a generic icon for a alternate Imperial City for the Romans:

Western Imperial City Report Icon.png (90.49 KiB) Viewed 1294 times

The Grand Campain is probably the only place where that second icon might be used. In theory, a player could relocate the capital and in time it might grow enough to reach the status of an Imperial City. An "Imperial" city is one step up from a Capital City like Antioch, Alexandria, or Ctesiphon.

Note: a player can relocate the court and change the capital at will. But only a city that grows to great size and receives a special legal stature can become an Imperial City in the game. Ctesiphon is the capital of the Parthian and Persian empires, but it isn't grand enough to be classified as an Imperial City.

[mercenarius]

Well I have started coding the Huns raid of 395 (and more AI programming, of course). I still have a decision to make about the fortress at Cumania which guards the Dariel Gorge (Gates of Alexander). I assume (that word) that it must have been garrisoned in 395 and the Huns either destroyed it or perhaps the garrison fled at news of their approach. As you can from the screen, I haven't coded that yet. (The fortress is still standing). The first shows the Huns getting as far as Armenia in the Spring turn:

Huns 395 Raid Stage I.jpg (845.71 KiB) Viewed 1211 times

That is taken from the "Tiro" or Easy level of difficulty to show the units in the Huns' army when it is selected. The Fog of War will be active at the higher levels of difficulty, and you'll see something like this in the Force Display Area:

Fog Of War Active.jpg (90.43 KiB) Viewed 1211 times

I figure that I will have the Huns move first in this scenario (for the first year, anyway). Otherwise, the standard first move would be to prepare for this and that is kind of bogus.

The Huns start the scenario "At Peace With Rome" but obviously that isn't going to last. This status may change, of course. Nevertheless, I like the idea of a sneak attack by the Huns against both Rome and Persia.

I hope to have this type of "mission" wrapped up with more screenshots by next weekend.

[Nikel]

Nice screenshot of The Caucasus and Armenia, thanks for posting it

It is amazing the little we know of the Huns in general, and of that 395 AD invasion you comment in particular.

[Nepos96]

Amazing the level of details we got here and love that the art used for this game still draws heavily from Hannibal.

I got one question: do you think it would be possible to have a scenario (as part of a DLC maybe), where we play as the Gothic kingdom of Italy shortly before the start of the Gothic war? The level of detail I see for managing internal affairs and administration (including relations with Senate) would work well for a scenario where you both have to fight a war of survival, gather extra resources to fight the eastern juggernaut (will you try to raise the money required to create a fleet or not) and ensure the loyalty of your subjects (Romans and not).

[mercenarius]

Nice screenshot of The Caucasus and Armenia, thanks for posting it

You are very welcome!

I got one question: do you think it would be possible to have a scenario (as part of a DLC maybe), where we play as the Gothic kingdom of Italy shortly before the start of the Gothic war?

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is I don't know how soon but it seems reasonable to have (at least) one DLC which is oriented towards the "barbarians" themselves.

[mercenarius]

Well, the Huns' Wild Ride continues, but they haven't gotten quite as far as I expected. I had to rework some of the rules regarding city battles. I also tweaked the rules regarding the Extended Move (or Barbarian March) option cards. Before that, they were stalling out in what you saw above, namely Armenia proper.

So, in their first move they get to Armenia Minor which is Roman territory. That is the move that they are expected to make:

Huns in Armenia Minor.jpg (886.41 KiB) Viewed 1137 times

I'll post more screenshots next weekend, I hope. The Huns next goal is plundering Syria, of course.

[Nepos96]

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is I don't know how soon but it seems reasonable to have (at least) one DLC which is oriented towards the "barbarians" themselves.

That's great to hear there is at least some interest in making certain barbarian factions playable. And I am sure the base game is going to be huge enough to keep us entertained until the idea of a DLC becomes feasible.