jamming?

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Dimitris
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RE: jamming?

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
2)We don't want the player to start solving sim or gaming problems strictly by gaming the system. Fog of war is an important reality. In this case though there is actually a science behind EW and warfighters might actually do some calculations based on what their sensors tell them but not to the extent of having the crystal ball that displaying calcs would provide.

This.

The radar detection pipeline is long and complex. You have initial nominal values, then you begin throwing in actual platform signatures, and jamming sources, and effects of terrain, and effects of weather (rain), and and and.

You think picking out the locations and characteristics of jamming emitters and listing them on the screen will tell you something?

Let me save you the suspense. It won't tell much - for the simple reason that it will be presented completely out of context.
mikmykWS
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RE: jamming?

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: DrRansom
ORIGINAL: mikmyk
The assumption is the crew handles that detail. The scope of the game isn't there yet and not sure it really should be.

Thanks!

Mike

I understand. On a general level, is there a priority list they move down? Perhaps it might be helpful in some situations for the player to be able to set the priority listing? E.g. jamming fighter radars vs. AWACS vs. targeting.



Yeah D hit the nail on the head and its a wall we hit with our own tastes often. We have to account that the game has to be approachable to all so we can't flood them with screens of minutae. Much can be said too for thinking about as a designer what you're trying to accomplish. At a high level are you modeling an aspect or pushing a button?

Speaking off. One thing I notice with flight sims is you have all these functions for your fighters but for some reason your AWACS etc. are never jammed. You get bullseye calls even when you're jammed.So perhaps we're not the only one's locked into a scope challenge?

We've been entertaining this but you're not gonna generate work just to give us a hard time about forum conversations. If we're going to take on anything its got to be valuable to our project and players. So I'd ask before you start rattling off things we should do consider the value to the group as a whole and the overall model. Believe me we understand the angst at level of detail but we've got to stay in business too!

Thanks

Mike
ExNusquam
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RE: jamming?

Post by ExNusquam »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Thanks! This one is probably pretty actionable. Added to our list to things.

Can you expose the radar frequencies/power as well? I always just went to Baloogan's wiki, but it would be great to have in game.
mikmykWS
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RE: jamming?

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Thanks! This one is probably pretty actionable. Added to our list to things.

Can you expose the radar frequencies/power as well? I always just went to Baloogan's wiki, but it would be great to have in game.

What would you do with it?

Mike
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Sardaukar
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RE: jamming?

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Thanks! This one is probably pretty actionable. Added to our list to things.

Can you expose the radar frequencies/power as well? I always just went to Baloogan's wiki, but it would be great to have in game.

What would you do with it?

Mike

Well...having the frequencies (both radars and jammers) would definitely lessen frustration by knowing if I am using wrong jammer for task. [8D] It'd also be useful for scenario designers for that same reason.

Knowing power is bit less important...but it'd give an idea of jammer's...well...power.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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mikmykWS
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RE: jamming?

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
ORIGINAL: mikmyk

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam




Can you expose the radar frequencies/power as well? I always just went to Baloogan's wiki, but it would be great to have in game.

What would you do with it?

Mike

Well...having the frequencies (both radars and jammers) would definitely lessen frustration by knowing if I am using wrong jammer for task. [8D] It'd also be useful for scenario designers for that same reason.

Knowing power is bit less important...but it'd give an idea of jammer's...well...power.

Frequency I agreed with. Power is a little misleading unless you know a few other things.

Anyways we'll talk and figure out the best way to handle this. We see people want more which is cool but we've got to make sure we're not giving TM useless I.

Thanks

Mike
DannyJim_slith
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RE: jamming?

Post by DannyJim_slith »

TBH I think that we could go too far quite quickly here. This is an operational simulation. I want the abstract of trusting platform crews to do their jobs not control of all stations on all platforms.
DrRansom
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RE: jamming?

Post by DrRansom »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
Yeah because we don't have enough complaints about micromanagement already.

Ok, no problem there. You are the devs and you make the call. Anyway, your game is basically the only thing I play now, it is really awesome.

The only two serious requests I have is: Database entry showing jammer frequency band and knowing which direction a jammer can work. That'll help when I try to set jamming support missions.

Thanks
Drivingguy
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RE: jamming?

Post by Drivingguy »

I know this is very simplistic but I play another game and they model jamming with a simple 1-5 scale. 1 being light jamming to 5 being completely jammed. They then model ECCM and burn through affects with a simple minus number.

I find its a easy way to see how effective the jamming is.

DWReese
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RE: jamming?

Post by DWReese »

I wouldn't mind a simple approach, either, as long as you knew that the systems were actually having some effect. Not knowing enough about EW, it would seem that a jamming platform's effectiveness would dissipate the further that the jammer was from unit being jammed. But, the game limits you to just "jammed" or not being jammed. So, you really don't know to what degree the platform is really being jammed.

As the platform gets closer to the jammer you would think that at some point it would "burn through" and that the jammer would no longer be working. But, the jammer still continues to have the "Jamming" designation. I get that it is hard to say that the unit is jamming this unit, but not that unit. That would be impossible to keep up with. So, each unit should have some kind of approximation provided to them (at least in Scenario Editor) to let them know to what degree the jamming is effective. I'm not talking about battle engagements. What I am primarily talking about is surveillance type calculations. A simple note that would indicate that the sensor could reach X far under the given weather conditions, but the sensor is currently being jammed by a unit originating from 232 degrees, which is currently degrading the effectiveness of this sensor. Just something to let you know that it is there, and that it is really working. Something like that, perhaps. It's just a thought.

Doug

Doug
mikmykWS
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RE: jamming?

Post by mikmykWS »

Hi Doug

D responded to this stuff above. Our game our choices.

I think we may pursue Sardy's suggestion.

Thanks

Mike
DWReese
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RE: jamming?

Post by DWReese »

That sounds great....my observation was just a "thought."
NeoOhm
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Re: jamming?

Post by NeoOhm »

Can i use jammers to burn trough enemy jammers? No i guess?
DWReese
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Re: jamming?

Post by DWReese »

Jammers are basically just noise/static makers. Think of it like a radio playing a song, with six other radios all playing different songs at the same time. Listen hard. Can you hear your song? Probably not. The closer that you get the more pronounced your song gets. Eventually, as you get closer, you can start to hear your song. Eventually, you get to the point where you only hear your song. You have either "tuned the others out", or your song is now so close that it drowns the others out.

Jammers can be offensive (trying to keep HARMs away from your strike), or defensive (trying to mess up the targeting of the attacking force as they try to destroy your high value targets.

In each case, you can eventually get close enough that neither does anything to provide any type of protection. This is known as "burn through."

There are all kinds of jammers. They don't all have to be electronic, although for the game they are. Technically, smoke is a jammer of sorts. Smoke can totally mess up laser sighting, just as noise jammers can mess up targeting ones. Smoke is cheap, but I don't believe that it is considered to be a "jammer" for game purposes Smoke will cause planes to have to get closer and launch their weapons using visual sighting as opposed to laser sighting.

This game has a deep level of intricacies which all play into one another.
Zanthra
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Re: jamming?

Post by Zanthra »

One other thing to keep in mind is that seeing Jammed over a unit does not tell you how severe the janming is to that unit’s sensors. It could be that the unit can’t see anything even at point blank, or it could just be a very small reduction in strength in a particular bearing. Even modern frequency hopping AESA radars will report being jammed by decades old jammers, but will be able to track targets without any issues.
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SeaQueen
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Re: RE: jamming?

Post by SeaQueen »

DWReese wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:59 am To simplify the conversation using some random numbers, if an attacking unit can see its target at 60 miles without the defending unit jamming, but he can't see it until 40 miles away with the unit jamming. Forget the numbers, I'm just trying to put it into perspective. So, the jamming reduces the distance. If that is the case, when the attacking unit is now capable of "seeing" its target, does the jamming do anything else, or is it now just useless?
Yes. That's accurate. The way to think of it is that jamming power goes as 1/R^2, but radar signal power goes as 1/R^4 so where the radar signal power is greater than the radar jamming power, the target can be seen. Command does "barrage" noise jamming. You'll also get a bigger effect when the aircraft you're trying to protect with the jammer is aligned with the jamming platform. This is because jammers are more effective when the radar is pointing it's antenna main lobe at the jammer, and not the side lobes. Sometimes side lobe jamming is all you need, sometimes not.
Also, I notice many many ships have jammers that they turn on while under attack. Obviously, the ships are already under attack, so the attackers have already seen the ships, so if what I said in the first paragraph is true about the jammers no longer having any effect, then why would the ships have jammers at all? They have already been seen to be attacked, so what's the point?
It might prevent the radar on the missile seeker from acquiring the warship, or it's in formation, from acquiring the vessels nearby. For example, if you are a DDG escorting a half dozen VLCCs, and you see a cruise missile fired at you, then you might want to turn on your jammer, partially to prevent acquisition of you, but also to prevent acquisition of the vessels you're escorting.

Also, be aware there's often a down side to jamming. If the threat has missiles with home-on-jam capabilities then maybe it's better to not jam because it can seduce the weapon. It all depends..

I believe that if jammers have some kind of effect, beyond the scope of just blocking observation, then it should somehow be revealed during the attack (if you choose to watch the actual mathematical breakdown) so that you would "know" that it is working. This could be like the other modifications that you see like being reduced due to speed, or size. perhaps it could say that the results are denigrated by 5% due to jamming.
I know that it's working when my aircraft hit their targets without the enemy firing a shot at the manned platforms. I know that it's working when I see missiles that are fired at my aircraft lose guidance and explode harmlessly after going autonomous.
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SeaQueen
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Re: RE: jamming?

Post by SeaQueen »

Drivingguy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:24 pm I know this is very simplistic but I play another game and they model jamming with a simple 1-5 scale. 1 being light jamming to 5 being completely jammed. They then model ECCM and burn through affects with a simple minus number.
That is SUPER simplistic. It also doesn't capture a lot of the phenomenology that makes jamming interesting, for example the 1/R^4 versus 1/R^2 competition. The Command model of jamming also fails to represent a lot, and I'd argue the generational difference is not the best way of handling the issues, but in the absence of classified data it's really hard to do much better.

Real electronic warfare is ridiculously technical. It really gets into the nitty gritty of how the radar systems function, and exploiting the shortcomings of the system. In real life there's lots of different kinds of jamming and lots of different jamming effects. So far, in the unclassified realm, Command does the best job of representing the physics of at least some types of electronic warfare that I've seen.
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SeaQueen
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Re: RE: jamming?

Post by SeaQueen »

DWReese wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:32 pm I wouldn't mind a simple approach, either, as long as you knew that the systems were actually having some effect. Not knowing enough about EW, it would seem that a jamming platform's effectiveness would dissipate the further that the jammer was from unit being jammed. But, the game limits you to just "jammed" or not being jammed. So, you really don't know to what degree the platform is really being jammed.
This is why you need to play around with toy scenarios, experiment and build up some data. For example, set up somewhere on the earth an SA-2 and have it emit. Pick somewhere flat, or on low level island so that terrain doesn't matter much. Next have an A-6 ingress on the SA-2 and note the distance that the A-6 is detected.

Next, add in an EA-6 or an EF-111 and repeat the same experiment. Does the detection distance change? If you move the jamming aircraft closer, does the A-6 get detected closer in or further away? How close do you need to put the jammer so that the A-6 never gets detected at all?

Repeat the same experiment but this time instead of an A-6, use an F-117. How does that change things? Try it now with an SA-10? What about some longer ranged surveillance radars? Electronic warfare, to be effective, takes a lot of thought.
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SeaQueen
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Re: RE: jamming?

Post by SeaQueen »

Dimitris wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:28 pm You think picking out the locations and characteristics of jamming emitters and listing them on the screen will tell you something?

Let me save you the suspense. It won't tell much - for the simple reason that it will be presented completely out of context.
They would tell you more if you knew about the physics of radar. The thing is, all the relevant constants can be determined by running a few experiments and compiling the numbers, with the relevant platforms, geometry, etc. So, you're right, they wouldn't do much for the average player. They'd just make high end players more brutal.
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